Addition to last post on chat, to clear things up.
by deleted · 18 comments 5 years ago
deleted · 5 years ago
This is an addition to my last chat, and to clear up confusion based on debates I am involved with in the comments of posts.
1) I am not of the Islamic faith. I’m a white, agnostic European.
2) I do not believe the faith itself or the people are inherently destructive or peaceful.
3) I do not hate Christianity or its followers. I hold the same sentiment that it is not inherently destructive or peaceful. Again, it is the individuals that should be viewed for their acts
4) My goal is to help people here understand there are plenty of good Muslims in the world.
5) I understand many, many Muslims are terrorists. Not all of them are good people
6) There are also Christian terrorists. Again, not everyone is inherently peaceful just because of a faith.
7) The Middle East needs reform. It is, as it stands, harmful to itself and others.
8) Mass immigration is an issue for many countries. We haven’t the resources to accommodate for all of them.
deleted · 5 years ago
9) I am not infringing on anyone’s freedom of speech, or rather, freedom to post what they believe.
10) I am not a spiteful person and I will gladly resolve any disagreement I have with anyone.
Thank you.
ethereal · 5 years ago
Like I get that people want to say what they want, but at some point, just why? Honestly, why in the heck is it okay to sit and dig at an entire religion and people group based on discriminating stereotypes, ya know? Like the outlook against Muslim peoples genuinely is nothing but racist and derogatory. Why is it that when white people get judged for the 'sins of the father' Ie. Being slavers, destroying Native American heritage, culture and peoples in a manner equivalent to genocide (Look up the definition, it's spot on), they freak out. Like all 'that Wasn't Me.' And then they see a Muslim woman wearing her traditional clothing, As she has a right to choose to wear, as is entirely an okay frikkin thing to do, and they equate her to acts of terrorism she had no relation to and think themselves in the right? Then they perpetuate degrading things, mentalities, social stigmas, etc,,, online in chat rooms, based on their racist thoughts, and then when someone has the decency to quietly,
ethereal · 5 years ago
-calmly request they either keep their opinions to themselves if they are going to be awful for no reason, or maybe take it to their own chat, they go up in arms thinking?? Oh, I'm Beign Censored! This is Descrimination!!-like what??? I'm just so done with having to watch my grandma panic when my Mother decides to wear her traditional clothes, afraid she will be hurt walking to her job. People may think that jokes have no harm in the end, and comments never hurt, but they are quiete literally one among many who just won't stop perpetuating social stigmas. And I'm so, so done with it.
ethereal · 5 years ago
Sorry that came out angry, but I genuinely am angry. @firmlee_grasspit was as nice as freaking can be, advocating others to not be buttholes in the future if they have been before, and the same dumb, illogical argument about being censored and 'free speech' popped up. People have the right to say what they want. yes. But I have the right to call them out on being racist jerks for it, too.
deleted · 5 years ago
I see this touches you closely. Yes, it is a hot-button issue. Just as you and your family are affected negatively by the descrimination, others are affected by terrorism, which sometimes does stem from the Middle East. It doesn’t help that news stations are incredibly biased, and are using the hate to fuel political agendas. But what can you do, but try and redirect someone’s line of thinking? I know you just want to shake them and say “why are you do hateful!?” But at the end of the day, they are logical and of sound of mind in their own eyes, and definitely have the support of others to reinforce it. I will not delve into whether or not I see that as “good or bad”, because honestly, who am I to say? I, too, am tired of the struggle. I feel the world crashing and tensions are quite high, even on a personal level.
vitklim · 5 years ago
Something that people don't seem to understand, is that there is a difference between religion and culture. Of course they interlink, but they are not inseperable. I don't care what religion people practice, unless doing so infringes on human rights of others. But the culture that the religion cultivated needs to change. Because we can objectively state that individual rights, religious and other freedoms, are an objective good to the people's wellbeing. And if a culture does not accept them, we have the full right to critique it, and demand it to change.
vitklim · 5 years ago
Whether you like it or not, but in terms of technological and social progress, Western countries are superior.
I'm not being racist here, the culture of the people is independent from the colour of their skin. I'm not saying they are stupider, or less worthy because of who they are, they just didn't have the same path and the same opportunities. I don't exclude anyone or prevent them from bringing their country into the light, in fact I welcome them to do so. I'm not saying that they have to lose all that their culture was before, and become a bland copy, they just have to modernise that which restricts people's freedom.
vitklim · 5 years ago
I don't hate, I feel pity. I'm not angry at people for their ideas, but for being too stubborn to try looking at things from a different perspective. I don't speak to provoke anger, but to provoke thought and discussion.
I hope that this does get through to @ethereal
deleted · 5 years ago
You raise a valid point. Many cultures are still far behind in the human rights department. I know you were addressing all of us here, but I don’t believe I would jave extrapolated that you view anyone as subhuman, or less intelligent based on culture. You were direct enough about your main focus, and I do agree that modernisation is key if we’re to share this world.
vitklim · 5 years ago
Yea, I just wanted to address @ethereal and people like him. Just to try to show them that we don't criticise just to be mean, but to try and improve things.
internet · 5 years ago
@vitklim I agree with you on the social and technological progress part. While the younger generations today are more open-minded, there are still those who cling on to outdated beliefs. Hell, even my own parents have said a few things that completely baffled me. Just because these people happen to be part of a minority, doesn't mean they should be free of criticism. (and that's coming from someone who is part of that minority)
funkmasterrex · 5 years ago
@mialinay you know when Jimmy and Timmy joined the crips and everyone decided... "oh... I should sit this one out"... Cah-Cah-Cah-Can wee sit this one ou-ou-out!? Maybe back-scratches whilst th-the-they de-s-destr-destroy demselves?
ethereal · 5 years ago
I have no qualms with genuine critique, or people speaking on how a culture can improve. @vitklim I think you have a good mindset, and I'm not at all offended by what you said, in fact, I agree with most of it. The issues I ranted about earlier (I'll admit I got very worked up, and I'm sorry about that) were, in my mind, mainly surrounding discrimination and racism in the US. While no one (People group, etc) should be acquitted from corrective criticism, the difference between good, well meant discussion of things that should change and the treatment that Muslim individuals undergo in America are very, very far removed. My grandmother, who is the child of a legal immigrant woman, and my mother, and I, and my sisters? We have never stepped foot outside America. We are American, and we are Muslim. What issues people have with the terrorism in the middle east, what qualms they find with the culture and such, have absolutely no connotation towards my family or their religion.---
ethereal · 5 years ago
There are extremists in every religion. Terrorism in every history. Yet, when my mother walks down the street, she has been harassed. Because American society has drifted from good criticism to a spite at an entire people group and religion. I think that many things need to change. People acknowledging the problems in the middle east gives me no issue. however, when people twist that mindset and think it okay to harass and spit abuse at people like my mother, who was born in the US and did nothing wrong but choose to follow her mother's religion? That is nothing but wrong, and that was mainly what my earlier anger was at. I, personally, chose to deviate from my family's religion. I never wore a hijab or related traditional clothing, but I still found that my university was polluted with anti-Muslim mentalities. People who I called friends made jokes about not angering me so that I would not 'blow them up'. It was nasty, unnecessary, and had no benefit to anyone other than feeding---
ethereal · 5 years ago
--Their own egos with a united dislike of another. I do not, in any way, think that that is related to what you mentioned, @vitklim. It is very, very good to have discussions and debates and corrective criticism towards the state of the middle east and such. I agree that the culture that has been bred around the Muslim faith in such areas needs to change. I in no way was saying that discussions of such matters are bad. I am a firm believer that silence on injustice allows it to grow, and my earlier anger was not aimed at ones like you; who are very obviously not in the wrong, but people who have no good intention in them. Those who use cruel words and scapegoat people like my family, they are who I was angered at. I hope I've made sense in what I said, and I want to be clear that my earlier comments were made in a rather hot-blooded state. I love the US, and I am proud to be a citizen, and I really don't mean to sound angry at my country, because I am not. I am angry that mentality in-
ethereal · 5 years ago
society has been twisted by some individuals to explain needless hatred at un-involved persons. Hatred of terrorism is an obvious thing. I hate terrorism. But when people look at my skin, and at my faith, and transfer their anger without cause? That is what angers me. Once again, I apologize for coming out of the gates swinging, this issue touches me very closely, and I have never been a very even tempered girl.
vitklim · 5 years ago
Completely fair, I probably would be just as bashful. It's rather hard for me to relate, granted I've never seen or experieced a similar situation, but I understand your frustration. But it does seem to me that these issues are somewhat connected. When people see the amount of suffering that adherence to fundamentalist Islam produces, both in the countries that impose it, and the ones affected by terrorism sourcing from it, they become scared and resentful without distinguishing the shades.
To reform the root causes of the problems, we need to able to talk about these things, and be able to critique. But nowadays, people keep trying to shut down the discussion, by trying to impose "Islamophobia" laws, or essentially, just another form of a blasphemy law. They don't want to have the discussion that could solve the issues, and would rather pretend the issues do not exist.
Addressing the source of the fear will quell the hatred, and the sooner we do it, the better.