While I agree men should have more rights in the process, this is utter bullshit. That's basically saying men can go around screwing woman after woman and take ZERO responsibility for their actions, regardless of the consequences. Any time you have sex you know there is a chance, especially if you don't use protection. Maybe guys should be a little more discerning when choosing partners. Just because he's not the one who has to bear the physical toll of carrying the child sure as hell doesn't mean he should also be exempt from any and all responsibility. Grow up, learn how to either practice safe sex, find better partners, or take matters in your own hands if you are unwilling to help take care of your own child.
But the same thing can be turned around on the women. Practice safe sex, find partners willing to have kids, or take matters into your own hands. If there is a pregnancy and your partner wishes to terminate then make the conscious choice to do so or shoulder the burden of parenthood on your own. No one thing’s abortions should be forced onto anyone but it’s not unreasonable that the father should be able to sign away his parental rights in exchange for being relieved of financial obligations.
There are so many variables and so little way to prove who said what it used what or agreed to what- how would we effectively and fairly determine wether one intended or through gross negligence or deceit conceived a child? That’s just to start. A law which says “raise it on your own or terminate” is a very questionable thing. What happens if the mother can’t afford to terminate? Does the father pay and she has to comp him, or do we make that a social service of the courts to terminate children that people can’t afford?
And what happens if that single parent isn’t able to care for that child? It’s a little late to abort at 4 years old- so by the time it’s clear a child will need tax payer assistance there’s no “undo” option- so while either isn’t always ideal- who has a greater responsibility to pay for that child- tax payers who may never have been in the same room as anyone involved, or the 2 people who had sex and made it? If you make a kid you’re responsible for it. The father might not be able to choose wether it’s born or not, but that’s a heavy choice for a mother to have regardless. Once it’s born, if the mother keeps it and the father wants nothing to do with it- she’ll be taking care of it and paying most of the expenses. So where in all this is the fathers responsibility?
This way of thinking is a fundamentally fucked up world view. It paints abortion as a privilege women have and men don’t, without accounting for the fact men don’t have to worry about getting pregnant or about carrying and birthing a baby, and have much lower risk of getting left during pregnancy. It tries to make things about asking what a woman’s responsibility is in sex- while completely waving away any responsibility a man has in sex. If abortion didn’t exist- it would just be a default that people take care of babies they make. It does exist though- so is the question seriously hinges on what makes it acceptable for the government to order someone to terminate their fetus?
basically let's just baby men even more than we already do and take all reproductive responsibility off their poor weary shoulders, is that what you're saying?
it's almost like men didn't fucking KNOW sex leads to pregnancy and eventually, children?! it's like that is the sole responsibility of the women while the men should be protected from all and any consequences of where they put their dicks.
overall, #RealMature.
I've met men who ABSOLUTELY believe: condoms are 100% effective, it's impossible for a woman to get pregnant her first time, that it's impossible to get pregnant on your period, that pulling out is 100% effective, and the best gem, if a woman has an orgasm it means she didn't get pregnant (dude was seriously combining orgasms and ovulation). Why a woman in her right mind would even consider letting these (specifically these idiots, not all males in general) guys anywhere near their vagina I cannot imagine.
"it's almost like men didn't know sex leads to pregnancy" But it does work both ways. If you don't believe in abortion or can't afford it, don't have sex. That's for both sides. If you think that your guy will ditch you if you get pregnant and you don't want to get an abortion or are unable to afford it, don't fuck that guy. I believe that if I were with a girl who, if she got pregnant, was unwilling or unable to get an abortion, we would see it through, but I also believe that I would not have sex with that girl in the first place. I'm not mentally or financially prepared enough in my life right now to have a child, so I don't take the risk unless I know her and I are on the same page with a plan in case something like that were to happen. I understand most people may not plan that out ahead of time, but that's part of the problem. "Well I fucked this girl and she got pregnant, and I had no idea she was going to keep it, now I'm screwed." Well maybe you shouldn't have done that then.
Ok- so if we establish that a woman who doesn’t want or can’t afford abortion shouldn’t have sex unless it’s with a man she knows wants kids with her- and we establish that a man is equally responsible- so should only have sex with women who DON’T want kids unless he does... and there’s a dispute- both obviously didn’t do a good enough job being responsible right? Because he didn’t know for SURE she didn’t want kids or else there would t be a problem right? And she did t know he didn’t want kids or either way she still had sex. So both “broke your rule.” What would be a fair ruling for 2 people who both have an equal responsibility in an accident...? I KNOW! What if they both had to care for the child? But let’s sweeten the deal and say that they don’t have to if they don’t want to- they can just split the costs of raising it 50/50? Brilliant!
"They don't have to if they don't want to" WTF does that even mean? And then entire point of what is being said is TAKE FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY. You fuck up and get a girl pregnant, man up and take responsibility, don't expect the woman to pay for everything and do all the work. You fuck up and get pregnant, woman up and take responsibility, don't expect the man to pay for everything. If you aren't mature enough to handle the consequences of your actions DON'T HAVE SEX. There other other ways of finding and giving satisfaction that can't lead to creating a human that you could be responsible for for at least the next 18 years.
@celticrose- I think you missed the sarcasm? The point is that if a man doesn’t want to be a father, but has already made a child- there’s no way to force him to be a dad. But he IS still responsible and needs to pay support. That’s what child support is. It’s the court saying “we ant make you be in this child’s life and maybe you shouldn’t be- but we can make you take some responsibility and not leave it all on the mother.” My point overall was to the above comments- that yes you SHOULDNT have sex if you can’t or don’t want to deal with possible consequences- but people DO. when they DO and when there ARE unwanted consequences- BOTH people who were involved are the people who must face consequences and responsibility.
@celticrose- wether one SHOULD be responsible or not, we have seen that people will have children and not be able or willing to care for them, or may not want them. If people avoid sex or only have sex when and if able and wanting children- there isn’t any debate. Everything is smooth. It’s when things do not happen that way that there is a problem. Where there is a problem like this- there must be a solution. It took two to make a child. It generally is advantageous to have two or the resources of two to raise a child. We cant force women to do what someone else wants with their bodies. We cant force men to stick around and be good dads. We can however make sure men who aren’t involved in their child’s lives are responsible for financially supporting that child.
Weak sauce. I’m sorry. I wish I had anything constructive to say. I’m a huge fan of sleep and not getting enough I know can cause all sorts of unpleasantness.
Then there is the outlier cases where the pregnancy occurred do to invetro-insemination and the mother sues for child support and the courts rule in her favour. Now the father having possibly never even met the woman are court mandated to pay child support simply because they donated their sperm.
There are also the cases of rapists suing for visitation rights to a child conceived by rape AND WINNING. Can you imagine having to take your baby to a prison, and face your rapist, because the court decided that bullshit.
In the United States, a parent can not relinquish parental rights via contract. Which makes sense when you think about it. All you’d have to do to be absolved of any and all legal responsibility for a kid is fill out a form and abandon them. A parent can only relinquish rights under circumstances such as being labeled unfit, or when a child has someone better suited to adopt them. The basic idea is sound. If a biological parent exists for a child- their decisions led to that child existing, so they would be the first place to start looking for both the child’s best interest as well as the tax payers before looking at foster care etc. however the system isn’t perfect as mentioned in this thread. In some cases it can really put people in bad spots. In general if the recipient of the donation has a legal partner who assumes parental rights- that person will be the legal father and not the biological father.
However- if there is no father on record the donor might find themselves in a legally actionable position. A judges ruling on the matter may be influences based on wether a donation was done randomly through a sperm bank, or if it was a “deal” between private parties such as good friends or a “for hire” situation. Surrogates- especially before embryo implantation, can also either be held to or choose to take parental rights in some cases. That can be a very messy situation. The law recognizes a fundamental bond between biological parents and children which is not broken through most means save for a legal agreement between both parties parent(s) and child, if deemed able to consent, or where a court compels it in the best interest of the child.
These laws are far from perfect but at their core are good intentioned and do serve some good. The near elimination of “urchins” with no adult supervision or aid, the principal that a child with only a single parent is general at a deficit in advantage to a child with both, the principal that when and if able, a child shouldn’t be a “ward of the state” but should be the responsibility of one or both who created it- a sovereign protection of parental status against abuses, and a protection of law and society against those who would use loop holes to avoid or circumvent laws intended for a child’s protection and benefit or to protect the public against using such abuses for personal gain.
But yeah. The system needs work. Family law type disputes are almost always dirty ugly things without a “winner,” or where one or all get shafted. Even child support often doesn’t pay even a majority of the amount collected to the actual beneficiary, less so if one is on assistance, and most child support cases are settled for monthly amounts not enough to offset the disadvantages inherent to a single parent home- but set too high and the payer could afford a life of their own. It’s brutal.
And it varies from state to state. In Iowa, if a child is willing to tell police they have suffered abuse that child is forced back into an abusive home. Even if the child is clearly afraid of the parents. I know a girl who was being emotionally abused with symptoms of sexual abuse (psychological effects, not clear physical ones). And Didn't want to go home. And the people (including myself) she was with didn't make her. (Which is abading a runaway, an aggravated misdemeanor) Well, when she refused to come home her mother called the cops. The cops came, demanded to speak to the kid alone (were told "no, she's a minor she should have a child advocate. Since one isn't here and neither are her parents, no.") Talked to the kid with me there. Kid hates talking to people, especially strangers. Ends up typing up a long winded message saying she doesn't want to go home, literally refuses to say why. This kid is afraid. Her mother shows up and cops literally see this girl recoil away...
...from the mom. This girl should have been put in child protective services. However, because she refused to tell cops she was being abused, and there were not obvious physical signs, there was literally nothing they could do by Iowa law. [Also, these cops showed up thinking the adults who were at the house were the problem, and ended up finding it regrettable that they couldn't do anything to help the kid. No charges were pressed on anyone] Because in the state of Iowa, parents have more right to their children than their children have a right to safety. A child will not be removed from their parents home in Iowa unless the kid is being clearly abused, and then the kid is only removed for a short time where an investigation is run. If the parents aren't found conclusively guilty of abuse, the kid goes back home.
Don't agree. I think an unwanted pregnancy is a mutual responsibility from beginning to end, whether the end is an abortion or not. The mistake came from both parts. When both partners are not careful, they know from the start that if they accidentaly get pregnant, they might disagree on what to do next. I think sometimes there's no way out. Even if you feel hopeless and if it seems unfair that only one person gets the final say. You have to accept you made a mistake, even if it's a life-altering one that results in a baby. You can't just say, "well agree to disagree, I want this, you want smth else, you do it on you own, I'm out". It's tough, but it doesn't exempt anyone from taking responsibility.
it's almost like men didn't fucking KNOW sex leads to pregnancy and eventually, children?! it's like that is the sole responsibility of the women while the men should be protected from all and any consequences of where they put their dicks.
overall, #RealMature.