Nothing burns quite like freedom does

Honestly, I'm long tired of these people trying to put me out of work so they can have free* shit.
*but not really free

But ORANGMUN sais Poutin gooood! ORANGMUN NO LIE! You meruica hating commieeeeeee!

Dude, you get paid with tax payer money. We subsidize you.

I know guest was trying to be funny, but their misspelling of Putin just reminded me of the Canadian snack "poutine", which is evidence that God loves Canada.

His name in French is literally Vladimir Poutine.

Defending from who?

Which service men or women would you harm for the cuts. That small reduction could cost valuable training that could save lives, field equipment, and the list continues.

From... everyone. See- it’s not just tyranny the military is for. Listen to people from all over the world wether it’s the poorest or richest countries and all over you will hear people wanting more. How do you get more, in a sealed snow globe of a planet? More for one group means less for another. So that land, water, Titanium, copper, iridium, whatever? You need a way to ensure others don’t think they can take it- and so when you want more others know that if they don’t give it you can take it. Is it lost on you that with rare exception the countries with the most military force available tend to be the richest and most powerful in the world? Mexico and the USA are on the same continent- share a border, who has a bigger military?

Who has more? The US literally used military might to take most of the land in its possession. Some of the most resource rich land in the world. We took California from Mexico and if the state were a country- by itself it would be one of the worlds biggest economies. So while “freedom” and all that are important functions of the military and a huge part of the marketing- cheap fast food, some of the cheapest fuel in the world, cars for every house and disposable razors and new toys and computers and huge wardrobes and fat full bellies and your own little suburban paradise and all that come at a cost. Someone somewhere goes without bread so that we can put butter on our second helping- and a strong military makes sure that YOU are the one getting the butter and not the one who doesn’t have bread. It’s harsh but true, and for all the complaining most people sure don’t seem to mind enjoying the lifestyle that military gets them,

I don’t see a lot of people removing themselves from that machine or moving to countries with shit military power and living the noble life there. But even more so? The military complex is a massive form of disguised unemployment and an economic tool. Not just for soldiers. Companies that make tech, raw materials, clothing, kitchen utensils, civilian aircraft, telecom, and a boat load of others make a significant portion of their money on defense contracts. If you live somewhere with companies like Grumman, BA, even Oracle or hitatchi (which A major construction equipment supplier is Deere.... Deere hitatchi...)

@scatmandingo it's just out of curiosity that I wonder if you have ever served in the military, no biggie either way, most of my friends never have and we get into debates of what is and what should be all the time. I always thought that the Founding Fathers had their shit together when they made the military to be under civilian rule. Like I said no biggie if you don't want to reply, or whatever your answer is.

Civilians from janitors to receptionists to engineers and more are employed by these companies and rely on their money for pay. That defense money goes to their checks and then to their rents and to purchasing homes and to local businesses. Hundreds of billions of dollars from the US military- the worlds largest employer- and that’s overseas too with foreign contractors and various businesses that service American personnel overseas and rely on their business.

I’m not saying one has to like it- but I am saying that if you mess with the US military- if you suddenly vaporize some large portion of that budget- there is a very large chance that almost anywhere you are in the world you will see a negative impact to your quality of life- and of primary concern to US politicians and the military- in the USA you will definitely see an impact in the form of the economic hit that makes.

Almost forgot, hi @guest_ lol

So “defending from who” is a bit of the wrong question. In addition to actually serving a role in active conflict, and serving as a deterrent to prevent action against US interests out of the consequence of retaliation- it’s a question of “defending from what...” I’m
Not saying we can’t make an economy which functions without a military complex- in saying ours does not- and to change that we have to develop alternative avenues to profit BEFORE we cause massive recession and collapse which would make building the infrastructure and having people who can afford to produce demand for goods and services less likely.

See- not every country can get away with the whole “being neutral” thing- in fact there’s really only one who that policy has worked for, they’re rather small and yes- very wealthy, but the neutrality is an illusion you see. Large portions of their wealth and stability are made off of the conflicts of others. One of their major exports is in fact- weapons. To conflict zones and combatants. So even our peace living neutral pals would take a kick in the checkbook there. But what’s easier? Taking care of the needs of 8.4 million mostly homogenous people and 15,000 square miles of territory...

Or 327 million mouths of diverse backgrounds and ways over 3.79 million square miles? You do t need nearly the same sized pie to take care of a row boat as you do to take care of an entire island do you? It’s a lot easier to get a consensus and protect what’s really important to 8 people than 327 people no? Now multiply by 1 million. Like it or not- the military is responsible for the prosperity the US enjoys in large part. Without teeth a governing body is impotent like the EU or UN- it can mainly just squawk and hope you listen. Laser guided bombs and boots on the ground make sure you listen, or that it doesn’t matter if you don’t. It’s gonna happen- easy or hard, that’s the message.

Dont forget that little country has a few policies in place along with a very defendable terrain that makes invasion from the ground highly unlikely. Every citizen is to own and pratice with a fire arm. Plus, huge amounts of money from people all over the world ,might make the rich not wanting anything to happen to their bank.

Take over a million people who rely on or are passionate about our service, and destroy our lives. Our families collapse, our sacrifice in time, money, and health rendered moot. Taken from us by the very people we chose to swear our lives in defense of. It'd hurt. It would feel like a betrayal. And then factor in that all of us are trained to kill, many of us practice violence, and a not insignificant portion of us are very good at it.
Best case scenario gangs, mafias, mercenaries, and revolutionaries spring from the woodwork, much like what happened to Eastern Europe after the USSR collapsed. Then factor that by the entire world knowing that there is no giant to be wary of, sleeping or otherwise.

I personally could see myself renouncing citizenship and seeking out Israel, the Foreign Legion, or falling in with some NGO, as a nation that betrays me is not a nation I am keen to burn with. Or joining a group keen on correcting the nation's course. By any means necessary.

@popsy- hi popsy! And yes- I did forget to mention the MANY other factors including the fact that pretty much the entire country is also booby trapped against invasion as well. @famousone- that’s sadly the part people forget most and care the least about. The lives of the human beings who aren’t part of a faceless entity nor through service to the government do they necessarily have any power over or even agree with the actions their job requires. Just men and women with spouses and kids and bills who tend to make a lot loss for similar jobs and deal with some unique BS and hazards, who aren’t somehow a different species but are just like anyone else save their training and lifestyle and oaths. Few people having any experience with military living on base or in the field are likely to think anything that could make aspects of it shittier would be a good idea.

Look at any area that closed a base. Not pretty.

Oh yeah. And even when things “work out” they sometimes don’t. The SF bay was traditionally a working class area. Sure there were some rich folks- but it was a place where small business was and people could hold down blue collar jobs and get by fine. The bases packed up and the labor market went south and for awhile things were pretty dicey especially in some areas. Real estate and tech brought money- so the city didn’t end up like Detroit- but in that process it became a place where a single person making $70k a year would barely be a lower middle class apartment or room renter. The soul and personality of the city changed- I’d say largely disappeared.

Long time residents pushed out and romantic transplants from places like the east coast who grew up with Bay Area dreams came in and their first order of business was to say they loved it but wanted it to be more like home- so they bought the things they loved and then destroyed them- then started wanting to move to Portland or Austin because the city they created was so much like the one they left by the tine they were done.

So in the end- even when you don’t end up with a ghost town you might end up with a place that you can’t live- or maybe don’t want to live.

@guest_ I haven’t served in the military though I have family that has. More importantly I live close enough to Washington DC to understand that military spending isn’t just training and equipping troops. I know people who make loads of money selling telecommunications equipment to the military. They can basically sell them stuff they don’t need (as in not compatible with what they have) and don’t have to worry about it because the military will just let it rot in a warehouse and not bother trying to get their money back because a $100 million here or there really isn’t significant for them.

The corruption is sickening , that's the politicians and high ranking shitbags that sign contracts that cost everyone money. Kickbacks should be sending them to the same prison (maybe Levenworth) as the politician that take bribes. There's a lot of waste because of the way their budgets are set up. The money a command gets has to be spent within the physical year or the next year the don't get as much. So things get wasted/destroyed ect, to use up any left over money. I wish we had some better watchdog groups to stop the corruption. I hope you don't have to drive much there. I always hated driving in DC.

I try not to drive in the area unless I have to. This isn’t political corruption it’s a natural occurrence in an organization that is highly cash flow positive. They don’t bother with the checks and balances for purchasing that you would expect because they don’t care. To be clear the people not bothering are “the troops.” If you cut funding by 5% the lack of fiscal accountability will likely be reduced before anyone is denied training or body armor.

@scarmandingo- I don’t recall making any statements about wether you’d served or not? (That isn’t sarcastic or anything in tone- I just wanted to be clear that I hadn’t called into question and am not questioning any insights you may have- and I more or less said this exact thing in my posts- even specifically mentioning telecom as one of the “civilian” industries that benefits from military spending. So we largely are on the same page here. It’s also true that a combination of high cash flow, the technical nature of military operations often making it...

so that it’s difficult or impossible for an “outsider” to provide oversight to the cost/benefits of a thing without relying on an advisor from within the system who will often- where aligned to a course- simply say it is valid- and of course the sensitive nature and often classified details of even seemingly trivial aspects of military spending and logistics- all create an environment where accountability of funds and integrity of approvals is murky at best.

It’s also true that often- constraints force innovation. There’s entire debates in the philosophy of engineering about when and wether it is best to allow engineers a blank check and free reign towards a goal- and when it’s best to apply constraints even where not necessary. The schools hold in short that unlimited freedom of talented people to a goal will produce the best product- and constraints might eliminate a “best” solution- or that unlimited reign causes a loss of focus, waste and inefficiency, and doesn’t spur creative thinking as the simplest most expensive option is always on the table. Necessity is the mother of invention they say- and enemy technicals and IED’s can be in many cases as practically effective as ordinance and materiel costing thousands of times the price.

But there is a valid concern in sending people into combat with a note saying “figure it out...” or of course telling them in case of combat... have it figured out. especially with general personnel and not SOF or similar with the training or ability let alone role to POS and improvise. So I slightly disagree on the note that budget cuts would increase fiscal responsibility- war is politics and high ranking officers are career politicians who use lives as votes. Body counts often un jam things when Washington puts it foot down- and childishness that doesn’t endanger troops like claiming inability to effectively enact orders of the state due to lack of resources works well. It’s harder to replace senior staff than you’d think- so “just fire the ones that don’t deliver” only goes so far.

But it might just cause an increase in accountability. However it won’t offset the loss to the civilian sector and general economy. We build shit people don’t want or need so we can buy shit people don’t want or need. The military buys a lot of shit people don’t want or need. A great deal of the crap that gets made ends up in a dump in the world. It’s primary purpose for existing was simple to move money from one place to another.

If you take a way a large buyer of crap- you have people maki g crap people aren’t buying. People don’t get paid, more crap doesn’t get made, people owning crap and supplying materials for crap and transporting crap don’t get paid. More people who make crap don’t get paid so can’t buy crap- people without money for crap can’t afford real estate- people who sell real estate can’t get paid, can’t buy crap- it’s a cycle.

The goal is to keep people buying crap. There’s a reason when birth rates fall economies tend to fall too. You need more people to buy crap- exponentially, with the current economic system. It’s literally disguised unemployment. People would shit if you just gave 60% of America money to stay at home. So we create systems to create jobs that do t need done or could easily be done by machines. There’s almost no need for anyone at most retail stores except maybe the stock folks and janitors. Fast food could also be ordered easily via machine, paid by machine, even mostly made by machine. But that would cause a massive loss of jobs.

Then those people can’t buy crap and.... there we go again. The military acts as a funnel to move large sums of money from taxes back into the economy. Favoring US goods, suppliers and labor helps keep the domestic economy moving and acts as a hidden rate of against foreign goods that doesn’t have the diplomatic complications of a straight anti competition clause. It’s tactically smartnin case of global conflict too- which helps justify it.

@guest_ My apologies. It was actually @popsy who asked and in a completely different comment thread for this post. I really nailed it on this one. ;)
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@popsy, if you want to back up a little bit on this thread your answer is there.

Haha, talk about telecomms , with a mix up and confusion. One of the problems I don't think any of us touch on is the chaotic nature of war. Throw in some good old fashioned stupity and lots of things can to hell. There were billions of dollars, paper money that disappeared in Iraq , it was sent for bribes, intell and such. I don't believe it was stolen as whole. I wouldn't be surprise if it turns up, mislabeled in Idaho, as field latrines or something.

I guess the point I’m trying to make is every dollar taken from the military isn’t taken from the troops in combat. There’s a hell of a lot of fat that could be trimmed and that little bit is a HUGE amount to other programs.

There is , I guess. I dont have a lot of faith in the folks that decide who gets what.