The old gods and the new demand that women hide themselves

But this issue goes the other way around too, I choose to wear a hijab and people still think I'm brainwashed or value my opinion as less just because of my faith. I don't think faith and education are exclusive things that cannot exist together. If people just called it oppression when a government is enforcing it down someone's throat I completely understand, but that's not what happens. Almost a 100% of the time, when I see posts on oppression and how backwards "muslim culture" is, it is never about actual islam and while loosely based on a country or two that takes things beyond what God has asked of us, it conveniently fails to mention that. I live in a 100% muslim nation that practices shariah law. The government funds my degree in Computer Science. We aren't oppressed because of just our faith. We are oppressed in countries where people act like animals. You don't help us by attacking what we wear, you help us by rallying against the actual people that DO attack girls.

I doubt very well- but as a kid in San Francisco it wasn’t too uncommon to see naked people about in the streets. Not an every day thing unless you walked by some of the red light areas when they were still in full swing with girls outside in mesh dresses handing out fliers and the like- the entire state of California doesn’t ban public nudity save for local ordinance and certain cases with practical reasons- because such laws are largely based in puritanical religious hangups than any practical reasoning. So one dies largely have the choice here to not wear clothes if they feel that way. The stare does not rule merely being naked as indecent exposure.

Uhm, why would a muslima who was born in america and lives there consider what to do or not to do in Iran or Iraq? Or in other words: why can so many people not realize and accept there are faithful muslims who were born in america (and europe for that matter) and who will keep on living there?

In my experience a lot of the immigrant communities try to impose their own law amongst themselves.
I've seen the aftermath of a girl trying to dress "American" shortly after landing in the states. The men around her did not appreciate. Or rather, they were far too appreciative.

First of all that's something that needs to be addressed from WITHIN the respective communities. You're entitled to your opinion but not to tell american muslim women what to do. Which is what the meme is about and as usual you've been trying to make it about something else entirely.

I'm not trying to tell the women what to do, I'm trying to see those kinds of animals pretending to be men kicked out or dealt with.
When you're in the United States you follow our laws, no matter what your customs are. The communities usually keep to themselves, but crimes against innocents are crimes against innocents, behind closed doors or not.

I hope you're not a smoker with all those straw men around you.

So rape and torture is fine when your neighbors think you have it coming? Because I'm only saying that it is oppressive when any community forcibly imposes standards beyond the scope of constitutional law. I could give a shit about whatever denomination those involved are.

That's an actual strawman, by the way

Are you ok?

No. I'm sleep deprived, physically exhausted, and might've just lost a soldier this morning to a fucking car accident. I haven't been less okay in a while.

Sorry to hear @famousone. I hope you get some rest and your soldier pulls through.

@halfdeadhammerhead- I get where you’re coming from. It’s a sticky situation. In America there are still plenty of people who would say: “a woman deserves it if she dresses like that, she’s asking for it!” We might not impose head coverings but there still are social concepts of modesty and how much of her body a woman can or should show in public. Those concepts aren’t necessarily as codified or widespread but that’s largely by virtue of the fact the US is so diverse. When a Christian perspective dominated ands ted as a primary informed of law we did have stricter laws and customs over women and what they must wear and when.

That said- the critical and crucial distinction I want to make is that in my view- it must be the woman’s choice to wear it. Not something imposed upon her or where her choice is coerced through danger or threat. If a woman wants to cover herself in any form that’s her business. Her body- her choice. I’m not going to wonder or ever ask her about it. I don’t see a woman in a head covering and think “I wonder if she’s being forced to wear that...?” I assume- because we are in America- that she’s wearing it because she wants to. The same as if I see a woman wearing a top that covers her entire cleavage I don’t think “I wonder if someone forced her to wear that....”

Sorry to hear that @famousone, hang in there pal

@guest_ even at a strip club where the girls are naked , a guy doesn't have the right to grab her breast. Not in disagreement with your statement , just adding a bit to it.

I’m just going to assume she wanted to- for whatever reason- and I don’t care what the reason is or want to know. It’s her business. As long as it is- her business. I do not agree with laws like those in France that force women to dress a certain way against their wishes- like the “burkini bans” that unfairly target certain religions and force them to decide between breaking their beliefs or not being able to enjoy a beach. I understand requiring removal of head coverings in day a bank etc if the face is obscured. I do not believe in forbidding people from observing religious traditions that they choose to and don’t effect others. And by the same token- I do not agree with forcing people to adhere to such customers either. It should always be a choice and it’s as simple as that.

Many would point out that a person from a country with such customs would insist upon being allowed to hold that custom in a country it is not- but a person who is from a place where such coverings are not custom would be expected to wear a covering and hold the customs of a country with those customs when visiting. They say that is hypocrisy or is a sign that we should do the same to “them.” Some say “the foreigner should follow the customs of the place they are in...” I reject those premises.

Our culture in America isn’t about head coverings. It’s about freedom and individual rights. A guest or immigrant to America is free to do as they like because this is America. That is OUR culture. Do what you want and don’t stop me from doing what I want. You want to wear a hijab, kippah, turban, a habit, cowboy hat, a freaking fur suit? Knock yourself out. As long as you aren’t being a danger or nuisance. And that’s the only culture immigrants need to “assimilate” not baseball or English or Christianity or politics. Just that- freedom. That they can do whatever they like so long as they don’t try and stop others.

You can become a citizen and as long as you aren’t a criminal you’re free to leave too. Freedom. Simple. When you aren’t free to live your life and make your decisions about how you dress or who you can speak to and so on. Practice the religion you like. Follow it so long as it is your choice and you aren’t imposing it on others. If you don’t like it- be free to leave it. Be free to start your own religion. And then don’t discriminate against others for choosing something besides what you chose. Because that discrimination interferes with their choices and their ability to live life.

And while we are in America- you can also join one of the myriad offshoots of people who have created sects of religions. The 4000000 flavors of Christianity and Catholicism- Mormonism and its sects, the flavors of Judaism, and the already many varieties and interpretations of Muslim faith. If you want to be Muslim and eat pork or wear no head cover or whatever- welcome to America. Do it. Start a new sect if you want.

That’s an important distinction see? When I say you shouldn’t be forced to wear a head covering I don’t mean that the rules of your religion shouldn’t require it. Hell- some jobs require you to wear a uniform. That’s fine because you CHOOSE to be a part of that. We do not have a state religion- so you can pick whatever one you want. And we don’t enforce religious laws with government- so you can break whatever laws of religion you want and again, in true American fashion- that’s between you and your god(s). There are plenty of church offshoots where nuns don’t wear habits, priests don’t wear frocks and pastors don’t wear collars. Those people read the book and decided that they didn’t like those parts or those parts didn’t apply.

So your religion can ask whatever it wants from you- and you may choose or not chose to follow it without legal penalty- but the law, society, should not force you to wear or not wear a head covering. The law should not force you to subscribe to or reject a religion which makes you dress and act against your will.

@popsy- agreed. We ant stop people from thinking what they will based on how we dress (but can hopefully help people open their minds-) but we do at least have laws meant to protect people from behavior of those without the sense otherwise.