A sane Hollywood celebrity is facing backlash because he said 3 year old children should

So and so insists they are a “real man” while their partner rolls their eyes. “So and so? Sure. I have to change the oil and kill spiders for them and they love soap operas more than me... but yeah. A regular Bruce Willis....”

There are so many types of man and woman that when I say that- when I say someone is a “woman” what does it mean? What does it tell you? You’re looking for Keith. Kieth is a feminine drag queen who passed for a lady. I say “look for a man with a red hat.” Will you find Keith in a crowd? Probably not. So our attitudes about gender identity are a primary cause behind this. Little boys don’t play with dolls and men don’t do this or that and women... what does a woman do in 2019? She’s a home maker and an executive and a mechanic no? She can “do everything a man can...” but we still look down on stay at home men or male nurses and flight attendants as a whole. So we all have these gender traits in our heads but we don’t have a way to classify the myriad of types of people who might fall under one of two possible (at present) generally used categories.

And that forces parents and kids into a corner. A boy who doesn’t act “enough like a boy” or a girl who doesn’t act quite like a “girl” are generally not embraced. They and their parents face judgment and ostracizing most likely. People don’t know what to make of them because they don’t fit the label we have given them.

Tl:dr- the basis of the problem lies in our social attitudes towards gender. We have 2, and those 2 have certain traits we expect. We don’t let people just be themselves. We judge them as more or less manly or womanly based on the little things they do, what they like or wear, etc. So people- being programmed to try to fit a group- will try to force themselves into one camp or the other. Man or woman. If you like wearing dresses as a man society will not see you as manly. You’ll largely e seen as broken. Those are the gender roles we build and perpetuate. You’ll get crazy and foolish parents who will put their kids into a game of gender politics on ALL sides of the issue- but either way a little boy that wants to wear a dress and have long, pretty hair isn’t gonna likely be treated well by society. So if you want to help, make that kid feel welcomed, and give him something to associate with that fits who he is.

So personally I think age isn’t the best way to look at it. It’s certainly a factor in determining experience and development. However, some kids are just more mature, more self aware, more resolved and intelligent that others. Growing up we had guns at 10-12. We’d hike and ride bikes with our riffles over our shoulders. Go to town, 15 cents at the hardware store for a bag of popcorn and a dollar or 2 for a box of rounds. Then we’d go plink and varmint shoot the day away. Our parents would teach us gun safety, and instill upon us the fear of god should they ever find that we did anything dumb with a weapon. Then when we seemed old enough to handle it, we got a BB gun, then a rifle. Some kids didn’t get rifles until they were late teens, some never got one from their parents.

I’d say 10-12 is generally not an age we should just say “meh. Give the kid a gun. See what happens.” But in the circumstances we were in, and based on the individual kid and their maturity etc- it was done. So I think that’s what it is more about. It’s about the individual kid, what their parents and an accredited professional; having gotten well acquainted with a child and vetted the whole affair, have to say. Not every kid who says they want to transition should, but surely some should.

I do agree. I had posited 13 as an absolute lower bound, mostly on personal experience and some amount of social knowledge I've gained from being part of the trans community.
I do have a slight gripe, as comparing teachable gun safety to the unteachable identity feels a bit disconnected. But I understand the point of calling upon it, of which personal responsibility and maturity is indeed a huge factor in both situations.
I do not personally have the proper biological, psychological, and physiological knowledge necessary to formulate the absolute ideal minimum age. And I feel that ages 11 and 12 could be argued for as the lower bound. But once again working on personal knowledge and reason, I do not believe any age beneath 11 could reasonably be argued for. And I personally believe that 11 and 12 themselves could be dangerous if a child who is slower to mature is rushed into the process before the time is right. This is, mostly, the reasoning I had for picking the age that I did.

People get tattoos before they turn 18. Sometimes it is a parent giving permission, sometimes they get it illegally or it’s a “prison tat” done by a friend. If you or anyone you know did- was it a mistake? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Now- ask people who got tattoos at 18,20. Was it a mistake? Some say yes. Some no. It’s a mixed bag. So perhaps running out and getting OTC gender transitioning is a bit much, but I can’t say that I know someone’s kid better than they or a team of professional mental and physical doctors do either.

Hammerhead addressed the larger issue- but to the direct point raised- without specific context to children and gender: counter point? If we can say it’s fairly common that people don’t have a good grasp on life into perhaps the 30’s; and thusly shouldn’t make such large decisions at a younger age- would that mean that people couldn’t take on debt, join the military, choose a career path etc. until they were an age where they grasped life better?

Well- certainly we don’t let 3 year olds commit to military service, they can’t even make medical decisions. A very stunted child can’t decide to take an experimental therapy to help them grow and develop. A child with a bowel disorder can’t choose between suffering with it through life or getting a resection or colostomy with the complications those entail. A baby certainly can’t decide if it wants to be circumcised for religious or other reasons or not.

So who do we turn to when such a decision comes up? If a Widowed single father converts to A given religion and has a newborn baby or young child who wants to convert- who decides if the kid should be circumcised and when? From the food they eat to the medicine and medicinal care they get to the clothes they wear, media they see or hear, values they are exposed to, exercise they get and Sicilians or habits they are brought up with- their religion or at least what services they attend or not- is it so uncommon for a parent to make a choice that effects a child’s life profoundly? Hell- even the career and social choices of a parent will steer the direction of their child’s life and the challenges they face.

What is the cry I hear from so many young people today? “I didn’t choose to be born..” “My parents owe me a debt because they thrust me into this world and now I have to be here.” Something to that effect? While I don’t agree with the often negative or entitled parts of the sentiment- it is true that you didn’t get a vote to be born. Here you are. Parents make choices for kids from the moment of conception to the point that child asserts independence and begins making choices for themselves- and even those choices in one way or another are guided or based upon the choices a parent made for them. It’s inescapable.

As you say: we may not be able to put a universal age on when a person can make their own decisions wisely- but we can agree that everyone is at some point an age where they cannot be relied upon to make their own choices wisely. Their parents or guardians are the ones who are entrusted to act in their best interests until that point. Medical professionals are empowered and bound to act with ethics in the best interest of patients. So if a child can’t make a decision and there is a decision to be made- who is better to make a decision- a parent and accredited care giver, or... a mob that doesn’t know anyone involved?

In the end- it is almost unheard of for any reputable medical team to facilitate a transition so young. The youngest age that such a transition even makes sense would be slightly before or right after signs of puberty- as the secondary sec characteristics of pre pubescent children aren’t radically different there isn’t a reason.

In such cases a change in gender identity- use of preferred pronouns, dress, etc. is generally considered sufficient, and these things are all reversible simply by stopping if the child ever decides otherwise. Simply saying you want to be this sex or that isn’t enough to pass the requirements of established practice for transitioning- which generally requires one go through psychological screening to determine if transitioning is a wise choice. So hardly if anyone is saying that parents should be able to walk in to a corner store or go to a family physician and elect for a gender swap the way they might a flu shot.

Did you once _decide_ on your gender? Cause I don't think a lot of people do. That's not only the larger issue, that's pretty much the entire issue.

There is a high rate of suicide, depression, and other issues in many who transition as adults. A leading theory suggests this is a combination of emotional and mental trauma suffered through a life in “the wrong body” and the way society might react to them; and an anticipation that has built up that once they transition those things will all go away- like magic the pain and scars, perhaps their whole lives will get better.

When considering transitioning for. Pre pubescent subject- psychological screening, interviews, alternative treatments, living as the preferred gender for an extended period, follow up, etc. would be warranted as well as weighing the medical risks, odds of a future regret, etc. against the psychological risks of not doing it. In cases where one outweighs the other- it would be objectively in the child’s best interests to pursue a change- and those are pretty heavy criteria meaning the psychological need to transition would have to be ruled as severe and of equally severe odds.

Now- working with children who want to transition can help develop better tests, better criteria to increase our ability to positively identify those kids who are statistically likely to maintain a life long desire to transition; and those who may just feel that in the moment. It could help develop better options for treatment or transitioning to help the child reach the state they will ultimately be happiest in in the safest and least harmful or risky manner.

@halfdeadhammerhead- it’s all a bit of a mess. People simply are who they are. Whatever “gender” they might have is a result of who they are. Unfortunately- in a binary gender system- that means many people must “decide” their gender. Are you a “man” or a “woman”? Perhaps one person doesn’t quite fit that mold; or they don’t feel it is right for them. But far too many people are pressured or effectively must “decide” their gender in society or on a form. Even if we had more than 2 common and widely recognized options- for those who are discovering who they are- who know what they aren’t but not quite what they are: “unknown” isn’t a gender forms or society is prone to accept.

But it’s complicated right? One generally doesn’t decide their sexuality. A “heterosexual” might decide to perform homosexual acts- out of experimentation or curiosity or even for money- but their sexuality isn’t such. A homosexual might decide to live as a heterosexual because of shame, denial, or aversion to social stigma etc. They didn’t decide to be homosexual but they did decide to live as a heterosexual even if that is not their nature. So there is complication between what can be called our nature- and our own or societies ability to understand or accept that nature as well as the persona or lifestyle we choose to live.

So I apologize if my language at any point was imprecise or offended. It was not my intent. Conveying complex concepts in detail already makes my posts long, but they become even longer when precision is dialed up so sometimes in the interest of relative brevity I must be less precise and hope the intent of the language is clear by the thrust of the ideas.

Gender and sexuality are both spectrums- and we lack the sheer number of words required to precisely convey either- so you’ll likely never meet someone who is 100% and truly within a defined category. Where gender and sexuality differ is that sexuality is more or less just a measure of what a person responds to sexually- where as gender is a social construct. It’s more amorphous. Gender is not anchored in reality. As a classification system gender identity takes the sum of a persons whole and categorizes them off of it.

Everything from the type of drink one orders to the cut and fit of their clothes, the side their pants button on, the width of their belt, their preferred color pallet, their choice of hair style and grooming, the way they speak and language they use, the tone of their voice, their body language- we ascribe gender significance to the way a person opens a soda.

Even emotions themselves- human emotions, feeling them, admitting we feel them, how often we feel them and how we express them is associated with gender. Our very thoughts are considered either to slant to one gender or another. A “manly voice” a “feminine waist” “manly hands” “emotional like a woman” “sitting like a man/woman” “eating like a man/woman” the lost of things people will associate as gender traits is long. “Manhood” “manliness” “femininity” “pretty boy” “Tom boy” “metrosexual” “twink” “dyke” these are some of the words we have in English for those who don’t fit our traditional gender roles but are identified with a certain gender. They are largely used as pejoratives. Even “androgynous” outside clinical use carries negative connotations. So by and large we do make people “choose.”