I'll keep saying it. I'll take a clothing optional society over one that imprisons, batters, or kills those who don't want to take a counterproductive measure.
So nobody has been imprisoned or harmed for refusing?
And it ain't about public safety, it's about feeling good.
The way most people and states are going about it, these masks are doing far more harm than good. Much like how the hysteria led to putting people who could still fucking breath on ventilators.
I feel like most middle-aged Americans have the same temperament as children. Especially Karens. If something inconveniences them, they go straight to the authorities to complain, even if it’s not an inconvenience at all
Listening to and reading the news, I’ve heard many cases of people being harassed, abused and even murdered FOR wearing masks.
From you, @famousone, is the only place I’ve heard of people being imprisoned or abused for NOT wearing a mask.
I’m not trying to say it isn’t happening. I’m just saying it’s not this huge issue we have to rally against at all costs.
I haven’t done the research, but I’m pretty sure people have been arrested and otherwise abused for not wearing pants or whatever. And that has nothing to do with health of a population, unlike wearing masks during a pandemic.
I've only seen people being targeted for not wearing masks. And the way the vast majority of people are going about it? The masks provide a false sense of security at best, and only worsen the risk and severity of catching something.
So- I will provide citations. Famousone is welcome to provide his own if he wishes. Back over Memorial Day, a woman in a Staten Island store not wearing a mask was confronted by customers who were angry and telling her to leave. There is video. The only other “non mask wearer ‘targeted’ stories I was able to find were of government authorities or private businesses enforcing their rules or a lawful order against someone who refused to comply. Like a sad tale of a mother wrestled to the ground in front of her child for refusing to wear a mask in public.
The Staten Island woman... was in Staten Island. So I mean... New Yorkers as a whole are a vocal no nonsense crowd who tend to speak up when they think someone is in the wrong. The store in question- regardless of law- had a policy about masks. They SHOULD have reported her to the store management instead of directly confronting her- they were in the wrong even if their hearts were in the right- but most may human would react strongly to feeling their personal safety endangered or to seeing someone do what they believe to be a crime or violation of rules everyone else is following.
The mother- well- as was the common string in the cases I found of “targeting” the non masked- she was disobeying a legal order, she refused to comply. She was “targeted” the same way that we “target” people who exercise their freedom to litter or drive drunk. That is to say- the police tend to target criminals. The force can certainly be argued as excessive- which would logically feed into the other and more pressing issue of government oppression of the moment that we don’t really need mask debates detracting from: police use of force and changes to police practices to better serve communities. That seems to me a better discussion to have as a nation if we are concerned about freedom.
Lastly- the studies- there are a few studies that indicate that masks may do nothing for Covid- or even be worse than no masks. A recent South Korean study INDICATED this possibility. At the same time- UCSF had changed from their early stance that masks didn’t work (they didn’t think they were a good benefit to cost ratio early on) to re analyzing the data and saying they believe right now masks are working. No one has “proof” that has published it either way- but we also don’t have “proof” on many carcinogens and other things which state or federal laws require special care due to the high potential risk.
To famousone’s point- passing laws requiring masks in public, with no vote and no ability to challenge through the courts on constitutionality or jurisdiction etc- would be a travesty. But what the warriors of mask freedom fail to grasp- is that no such laws were passed. Under emergency powers given to the government, lawful orders were given. These orders are treated as law but are not law. They vaporize when the state of emergency has subsided. Like martial law, like war time censorship, like preventing the media from publishing troop locations or state secrets- these are legal exceptions where suspension or side stepping the constitution are allowed for. There are many legal and constitutional exceptions that allow such orders.
@famousone- you do realize that the United States has mandatory vaccination requirements right? That they can (and have) literally strapped people down and forced them to get vaccines at times of crisis of people did not comply to the law? It has been ruled constitutional time and time again that the government has powers to enforce public health in the face of crisis. So there is no question in any educated mind wether these mask orders are constitutional. The official ruling of the Supreme Court- for over 200 years- is that no person has unlimited freedom under the constitution at all time. How would we arrest people suspected of crimes BEFORE a conviction if they are innocent before trial, and we couldn’t force a free and innocent person into custody?
There are a lot of studies flying around right now about covid. Some of the studies are well done and balanced and some of them are awful.
I read a couple of the ones regarding masks, and largely, those studies are poorly conducted. One has a sample size of 6, which is in no way statistically significant.
Unfortunately, we don’t have good data. It’s possible that masks don’t help. But it is also possible that they do. And I am much more offended by being required to wear pants (serves only modesty) than being required to wear a mask (*probably* serves public safety).
The way people are going about wearing masks is only hurting them. Aside from risk of hypoxia during physical activity, people don't have the training to keep them useful, nor the means to properly sanitize them, meaning that the masses are being told to walk around with what is effectively a petri dish or viral/bacterial incubator on their face. And even that assumes far more people have proper materials than really do.
This is day 0 hospital or clinic safety stuff.
@famousone- people with impaired breathing COULD have problems. People performing extreme physical activity COULD. I haven’t seen an mask orders that require people to wear masks if they have breathing problems. Most specify small children and those with medical issues are exempt. None of the orders I’ve seen require masks while exercising. I’ve seen it suggested as preferred- but every order I’ve seen only specified that masks be worn when in shares public places like shops- social distancing should be observed at all tiles even during exercise- but distance should be increased due the changes in respiration etc. during strenuous activity.
For the rest- I agree mostly. People are terrible with that sort of things. People DO or COULD have the means to sanitize. It’s generally not hard. That said- they won’t. We can’t even get people to wear masks- you think they’ll spend the time and effort to care for them? Most people pick up CD’s by the flats and can’t even keep the maintenance schedule on their cars let alone half the things in life that should be adjusted or cared for.
But the ONLY safe and effective preventative measure against covid that we have, that has no arguments about safety or efficacy- is isolation. To lock everyone in their homes until the pandemic passes. That IS constitutional- if they declared a state of emergency, called up the National guard, and locked down every city in America until covid cases dropped to almost 0.
It would also be devastating. The economy, basic infrastructure, moral, people’s lives, and if people (wrongly) are classifying a legal and constitutional order to wear masks as tyrannical- what response do you think mass lockdowns would have? Not just the mask folks either- think the rioters and protestors and so forth on other issues would take that well?
So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The ONE thing we can actually do that we know will work- is extreme, and no one wants it to happen. So we got masks instead. Even if we pretend to agree that masks aren’t bad- even the health experts that support them are clear that they aren’t 100% effective- no where near as effective as staying home. But people won’t stay home.
But screw it. As I’ve said before- we should just put armed guards on the street to keep unmasked people and masked people apart, and let the unmasked people do as they like as long as they stay away from the masked. That would sort this all out pretty quickly and we’d know who was right.
The United States as a whole has no provision for martial law, though individual states do. Mandating the wear of masks is not constitutional as there is no vested authority for the federal government to give such a vague, counter productive, and potentially harmful command.
Covid-19 is a flu. It will never go away, it will simply continue to ebb mutate and join the other flus we deal with on a seasonal basis. It is particularly infectious, but not extraordinarily lethal or severe compared to others, with a few exceptions. The vast majority of cases or even asymptomatic or confused for bog standard illnesses.
Let people take their own lives in their own hands. You want to live in fear? Stay locked up. I want to go to the gym? That's not your concern, you're living in your little castle while the rest of us are living and dying instead of letting undue panic steal months and years that we are not guaranteed in the first place.
It’s actually not a flu.
I know every one likes to toss that around because we have come to view the flu as no big deal. And, in comparison, you’re right, it’s not.
So let’s ignore 132,000 Americans whose lives were meaningless. Let’s ignore the fact that we are 7 months into 2020 and already profoundly more Americans have died of Covid than died of influenza (34k) in all of 2019. (Based on CDC stats). Let’s ignore that we are seeing healthy young people hospitalized for this disease. Let’s ignore that children are surfing organ failures AFTER recovering from this disease. Let’s ignore the huge percentage of people who are suffering severe neurological defects. Let’s ignore the fact that the flu doesn’t kill this many people, doesn’t cause this kind of systemic damage.
Let’s ignore all the facts.
Roa oaks covered part 1: Covid isn’t a flu. I would also like to add of one of the premises you’d want to argue is that masks are not proven or sufficiently tested- I wouldn’t argue your case based on speculation about what Covid May do in the future. So part 2. The United States Constitution does not contain mechanisms for “martial law.” Most state constitutions however do- so “constitution” depends on which we speak of. A state constitution can differ from The US constitution- but cannot violate it Nd be legally valid. To date- martial law survives challenges of constitutionality. But to go a step further- the Federal government TOTALLY can declare martial law. Generally speaking- for “true” martial law- the state is required to agree- but it is the Federal government that sends federal resources when that happens.
If one knows their US history- one knows that in the past 60 years this has happened several times- usually in cases of extreme civil unrest. In fact- and this is a bit disappointing as the insurrection act was recently a big deal in the news- It has been used before- including 1992- which for the very young may seem like 1892, but for those of us who were alive and fully functional of our faculties, 1992 is not such a distant memory.
As for the ability of the Federal Government to give vague orders..... two parts here. 1. In many or most cases the orders for masks are coming from state and county or even city. 2. I do not know the present day to day communications of our military- but I do wonder how things must have changed over the years when a military man sees “when you are in the following list of places, you must wear a face covering which meets the following specific criteria...” as a “vague command.” Its pretty darn specific. They do not tell you what brand, or material, or color. But I wonder if when told to grab your kit, or to meet at a certain place and time- if these would be considered vague as well since they don’t specify things like what to wear or wether to smile or if you should stop and use the potty.
But again- we are largely in agreement that that we both believe am individuals health should be their own business. I’ve never ridden a motorcycle
Without a helmet. Many swear it is the ONLY proper way to do so. I will likely never know, and I don’t begrudge them their right to it- it’s their life. I do begrudge one their right to build nuclear bombs as a hobby in their home- because that puts the safety of other people- like me or my family- in potential danger needlessly.
If there were a way to keep these groups of masked and unmasked separate and safe- I’d say let people who don’t want to wear them have at it. It’s their life and they’d only be endangering other people who agreed to the same risk. That is not the case though. When and if the no mask crowd comes up with proof and can get the leading experts in medicine and government to agree masks do more harm than good- then let’s all get rid of masks. Until then- we act upon the Intel we have. Current information says the masks protect people. If the situation changes, the plan changes. Until that happens- we go with what we know.
Currently, the majority consensus of experts states masks are safe and effective. Currently, the government and courts hold that mask laws are constitutional. Based on the current state of things- a lawful order has been given which has been held to be ethical and within the power of the government. Public opinion does not change any of that. Legal precedent, medical fact, legislative action- can reveal that such an order isn’t constitutional or the right call. Repeating over and over vagaries about freedom while getting key facts of the issue wrong (such as the virus being a flu, etc etc...) doesn’t change any of that. People can be upset if they like- but again... you’re enlisted no? You can be upset all you like about your orders while you follow them.
We know that the masks aren't good because it is proven, these measures would never fly in a hospital, and as I keep saying, people either are not or cannot properly mask up.
We are arguing nationally, not state, so do kindly stop moving your goalposts.
And the fatality count is stupidly inflated. Especially when California is counting car crashes, NY is counting deaths of people who were never tested, hospitals nationwide were given a profit motive to have more Covid deaths, and across the board deaths that would be attributed to age, cancer, or chronic conditions are now being attributed to covid.
The commands are vague and harmful because strapping a sock to your face is not like wearing an N95 is not like reusing the aforementioned N95.
Legality does not decide right or wrong. Never has, never will.
And I do follow orders to mask up in my duties as a medic. I am trained and have the resources to do so while at the quarantine barracks.
As for "intel", there is clearly an agenda being pushed when you look at selective enforcement, convenient changes, and especially at how the usual suspects (Google, YouTube, social media) are throwing their lot in with the Chinese run WHO and pushing studies with 6 patients over the analysis of any current medical personnel who dare to suggest that even one little thing could be better or isn't right.
I am not going to wait for experts to tell me that left is right and up is down, I am an educated adult with a life to live and a brain of my own that works plenty fine, thank you very fucking much.
You keep saying it is “proven” that masks cause harm... proven... where? Proven by what organizations and experts? Where is the DATA to prove it? And the WHO...? Didn’t endorse masks until recently- and they still maintain- very clearly- guidelines for using masks as well as the fact masks alone won’t protect anyone from Covid. Which is sort of a no shit statement. The only things that can protect a person “alone” from most NBC agents is either a suit or chamber fully sealed and shielded from the active threat agent, or completely avoiding exposure. Mosquito nets alone don’t prevent malaria either, and giving people condoms alone or even making them use condones alone doesn’t prevent STD’s- it is hopefully only part of a larger strategy of containment and behavioral changes.
We already agreed- most people can’t take care of things or follow directions. I’ve seen the fuck ups that can happen or infections from people trying even when they have access to all the right equipment- to perform even relatively simple medical tasks like cleaning a wound or changing/flushing an IV. But there literally isn’t a way to eliminate people from Covid measures save to completely remove their freedom and lock them up- or to not have measures at all. Anything in between requires people to be involved and potentially fuck up doing things right.
But getting sick because YOU fucked up is quite literally the exact “people should be responsible for their own care” philosophy. Wear a mask and wear it right. If you are physically able but mentally unable or unsure you can’t wear a mask and follow the other directions to safely be around people- self isolate. The other option is to punish people who are willing and able to follow directions because some people can’t. That doesn’t sound like the famousone I know.
As for a clear agenda- just... what? “Big mask” needed to raise sales and secretly has the worlds experts and leaders in its pockets, or.... what is the end game there? There are a shit ton of agendas-oval and federal politicians and career experts trying to balance public reaction, safety, their career futures... etc. anything done with more than 0 people will have some agenda unless it’s a bunch of brain dead human cows fumbling around aimlessly.
But “agenda” is something you have when you go on vacation- like “see the Eiffel Tower” or “relax” as well- it isn’t always a sinister conspiracy. But with Trump on the mask band wagon- are you saying he is in China’s pocket too- along with the WHO, most state governments, so on?
Lastly- another fact check... the mask protocols won’t fly at a hospital...? I may have read that wrong. I just got off the phone with my sister who does surgeries for a local hospital... and patients coming in are to follow mask procedure as outlined in the present state order.... doctors follow a slightly different protocol- they clean or dispose of masks at the end of day in the clinic- or when going in surgery.... but.... I think... your facts may be.... wrong again.
I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm wholly convinced you're being deliberately obtuse. I've made it very clear that this was learned BEFORE Covid-19. 20th century fucking lessons learned in bile and tears.
The agenda is the powers that be trying to manufacture crisis to consolidate power, but worse than even usual.
Actually, forget it. You've demonstrated consistently that in this one thing, you're beyond rationality and even the pretense of skepticism.
Don’t mean to be rude here but guest does a lot of research on other topics, so I hold him in a slightly higher regard for consistency. I’m not really seeing any sources quoted by either of you anyway.
I'm speaking from experience as a medic in the Army. Trained in Fort Sam Houston, stationed on the "front line" (we hate that phrase) in Fort Bliss with the 1st Armored Division.
Being your own source is basically how we all have to live our lives- but generally speaking, using yourself for a citation to back an opinion for discussion is dicey at best. But I shall give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you could upload and link- or at least summarize the data tables you have gathered and the controls, criteria’s, or results of your lab work to support the theory that masks cause more harm than good?
I assume that quoting first hand authority on the subject- you have data and constraints which can be used to validate the anecdotal conclusions drawn from observation?
Funny story. True story. As an army man this one may tickle your pickle. Ever seen a Stoner style AR like an M-16 or M4 without the front hand guard? The barrel profile used by the government is kinda weird. It thins out from the extension, gets pencil thin almost at the gas port (which is thicker than the fore or aft section of barrel..) then stays thick to the threads/muzzle. Odd no? The “thin” part would seem to be an attempt to spare weight. The thick part- thicker barrel- less whip maybe, better heat resistance? So why is the thin end where most of the heat from fire is generated and where weight would be better balanced?
Well- turns out when they were testing the early rifles stateside- they were getting feedback from the guys using and servicing the riffles. Major feedback- a large number of notes were in rifles needing new barrels because according to the frontline feedback- they were bent. The bent portion was indicated to be... the portion of barrel beyond the gas port. So- the engineers did a redesign and made that part of the barrel thicker. Whatever these guys were doing was obviously stressing that part of the barrel.
Wouldn’t you know it- after the new design was pushed into production and made spec- they STILL were getting “bent barrel” same place on the barrel. So they sent out some experts to see what these “front line” Tripp’s might be doing. Were they using their barrels to open crates? Were the armorers making a mistake checking guns?
It turns out- neither. The armorers were doing their job- as trained and to the letter. The soldiers were using the rifles as intended. Guess what? This is the funny part- this is the part that is most pertinent to your reply @famousone.
The barrels had been machined so that the gas port hole was not properly finished inside the barrel. Because it was “rough” it would cake with carbon- create a little lump on the barrel. The armorers would put the gauge down the barrel- and it would get stuck on that little lump. As per what the front line Tripp’s had been taught- that was a bent barrel as there were no visible obstructions they could see. Not their job to do machine work on it.
So the engineers worked with the barrel maker to make sure the gas ports were being finished right- the problem went away. Of course- the momentum of procurement politics meant it was too late to change the profile of the barrel back- so for its life in the military, our primary infantry rifle has had a barrel profile designed to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. Of course- it also doesn’t really cause any real harm and has SOME upsides in the real world- “if it ain’t broke...” and all that....
But- the moral of todays story is: on the front line you may see a bent barrel. No fault of the guy on the line. That is what he was told to see. If we take that literal report at gospel- well... sometimes it takes someone with a more distanced perspective and more tools and information to make an objective and correct determination of the issue.
You can also use flat earth if you like. A guy on the ground isn’t going to see the curve of the earth- A pilot high in the air can tell them that from up there- they can see the curve... guy on the ground won’t see it. If that guy on the ground says “look here. I am ON the earth and I’m telling you it is flat as a pancake. I would know- I’m standing on it...” we could maybe forgive him for not trusting someone else’s eyes over his own... but... when most scientists on earth chime in and say “here is the math. Here is the data. Here is the proof...”
If our boy on the ground replies “I don’t have any data- but I can see. And these other 5 guys agree with me...” well... you’d probably think he was a bit out of his depth would you not? You’d likely say “I know man. It looks flat. But look here, the Earth isn’t flat. I’ve seen the same data. I’ve heard the same people. It looks flat to me on the ground to- but I’ve been up high enough to see with my own eyes that it isn’t flat. It looks that way from here- but only because you don’t have the full picture- and that’s ok. It doesn’t make you foolish to only be able to know what you know. It makes you foolish when you insist you’re right and don’t have anything tangible to base that on...”
Masks serve me well. The ones I am issued are properly fitted, made of the proper material, and only used for the recommended lifespan or shorter.
Tell me, what happens when a person wears the same underwear in inhospitable conditions for days on end? What happens if a person rucking for days on end don't change their socks? What happens if a person doesn't properly clean their weapon? Or God-forbid, makes unauthorized modifications for the sake of convenience? What happens when a person straps a dirty shirt to their face for days on end, maybe washing it once a week, while expecting it to keep themselves or others safe from a more infectious than typical virus?
Well- a dirty shirt probably will keep others just as safe as a clean shirt. If the dirt is really caked in it may actually work better. You shouldn’t be touching it- or your face- and sterilizing your hands after if you do- so granted that direct physical contact to the dirty shirt may endanger others- of course you’d likely need to be closer than 6’... with your hands or face.... on theirs.... to get corona from a dirty mask.... which... there are WAY more things going on there. I mean... why not say it’s tyranny and pointless to have people keep 6’ apart then?
Most people don’t know what 6’ is and fuck that up too. And it’s an “unconstitutional order” to tell people where to stand in public or who they can be near no? So if all people and follow the guidelines all the time to the letter- let’s just throw it all out?
And also... dirty underwear? Dawg- I don’t know who is in your unit. I don’t know where you grew up. I don’t know what the good people in the corner of The country you are in are doing... if you are concerned that the average American doesn’t know not to wear the same drawers or shirt for a week.
But if you commit suicide by lack of ability to figure out you can wash clothes and worn items.... I don’t know how we can help you? Maybe... you could make a YouTube channel and teach people about laundry? Also- you can clean your shoes and boots. I do so regularly. But then... why is your message “masks go away...” and not “wash your masks”? You’d think based on your “Advanced Theory of dirty chones” that you’d be advocating people I dunnoh... wash their masks and not that they... be free of having to wear them? If the legal order to wear masks also made it illegal to wear dirty underwear would that be a compromise that you could accept?
My message is "stop spreading bad medicine and let people decide for themselves whether they want to live in fear". And yes. It is bad medicine to tell people that what will actually make them more susceptible to infection is somehow protecting them and others. If you step outside, or allow anyone into your environment you are at risk. If you strap a fucking viral incubator that is cotton onto your face, you're only making things worse.
And if you do have a proper mask, N95 at the absolute bare minimum, then whether others are masked up has no bearing on your health.
But... you still haven’t shown us that cloth masks are bad for people’s health. I’m just a humble Turnip farmer- so forgive me of all this was covered in your training... but generally something called the “Scientific Method” is used in cases like this. Make an observation.
Ask a question.
Form a hypothesis, or testable explanation.
Make a prediction based on the hypothesis.
Test the prediction.
Iterate: use the results to make new hypotheses or predictions.
It seems we can say you’ve reached step 2.... but again- Turnip Farmer here- not trying to step on the toes of a real scientist. I don’t have a degree in medicine. I studied statistics and engineering- and was only a Data Analyst for about 10 years- so maybe I’m wrong here- but traditionally don’t we wait to declare a result until we’ve gone through ALL the steps? I believe you are missing a few?
I do have to ask- how many deaths have been caused by dirty masks? I don’t have that data? Are we up to.. 10,000 yet? Maybe not deaths. How many infections has your team traced back to dirty masks using laboratory procedures and forensics? Are we up to 2,000 a day? 30,000? What’s the hard number from the field on confirmed cases of Covid infection or respiratory infection caused by wearing a mask?
That ain't how it works. I'm arguing from a position of established medicine and sanitation, else CBRN and doctors working infectious diseases would be just fine with cotton masks. It's not me trying to use the force of law (fine, imprisonment, or death) to tell people what to do.
The powers that be are acting as though shirts work just as well as N95, filtered masks, or rebreathers. If everyone had those, plus means to maintain and replace them, than everything would be fine.
Well- no. They specifically said N95 works better. That’s why they told everyone not to use N95- they work better and people at high risk of exposure need them more than most people getting groceries- who are supposed to stay 6 feet away from others. And avoid others. And crowds. Things that people working closely with potentially infected folks can’t do. So they are saying a cloth mask is better than... no mask. And... so far, most experts agree. So far- no hard data has proved otherwise.
Also... doctors and surgeons do routinely wear masks that aren’t N95. All the time man. Have you ever been to a hospital? They... if you google “surgical mask...” you will get a picture of a no. Woven surgical mask- top hit. Before the 1960’s most doctored used cloth masks. In countries that are less developed and in remote corners of the world where relief workers have thing budgets or trouble with supplies... they use cloth masks. Cloth masks have been used in medicine since the 1900’s at least.
Surgical and cloth medical masks aren’t to protect the wearer from infection. They are designed and designated effective at decreasing the chance a wearer will infect or contaminant someone near them. Doctors wear those masks... for YOUR protection primarily. The same as the mask order isn’t intended to protect YOU from breathing peoples germs. It is to help reduce the chances of YOU infecting someone else and vice versa.
Cloth masks are NOT as effective at this as unwoven surgical masks. Unwoven surgical masks are NOT as effective at this as an N95 or sealed rebreather etc. unlike an N95 or sealed rebreather- common and improvised masks- cloth or actual medical grade surgical masks- don’t protect the WEARER from INHALING infectious material. That isn’t what they are for.
The point of a cloth mask isn’t that it is 100% effective. It is that it is MORE effective than NO mask. Don’t believe me? Spray yourself with a hose. Now have someone hold a t shirt between you and the hose and try again. Wow. Much different. You can also do this with a mister- spray a fine mist at a piece of water reactive paper, then put the cloth between it and the mister... viola. Science.
And again, you're assuming the average person has the discipline, resources, and knowledge to keep it effective, but they don't. I've been saying that FACTUALLY, an N95 is the minimum for quantifiable protection, THEORETICALLY something is better than nothing, and IN PRACTICE the wrong thing is worse than no thing. And look around brother, the masses do not know or abide by the right thing. Seatbelts are good! Seatbelts underneath your ass, around your neck, or made of steel are not.
On top of that, it is unamerican, it is not justified, and it is not reasonable to imprison and kill people for this while actual fucking criminals are being let out, anarchists are running rampant, and the fatalities of the virus are only concerning when massively inflated. If you're not a New Yorker, over 80, with preexisting conditions, you'll be pretty alright. And even in New York, your biggest problem is the fucking government deliberately infecting your nursing home. Don't worry if you fall outside that demographic though, you'll still be counted even if you died of cancer, pneumonia, or were shot, or died in a bus accident, or they haven't determined cause of death but hey, there's benefits to reporting more Covid deaths.
You wanna lower the bar to use government force on such a massive scale so much, you should imprison or kill people who eat sweets. That kills far more people without flubbing the numbers.
So... you mentioned seatbelts. Can we assume that you think seatbelt laws are un-American? I’m going to assume that mandatory vaccinations also are un-American, since you know there are plenty of folks who believe those are harmful? And probably you think that forcing people to register with social security and get a social security number is a travesty to freedom? And as a private employer- it’s my RIGHT to decide if I want to ask employees to verify their citizenship or age right? I mean- I don’t need to report any of that to the government- the employee knows the rules and they have to decide what’s best to follow or not? Is that the logic there?
N95 is PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT. it PROTECTS THE WEARER AND OTHERS. Cloth and surgical masks PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE. laboratory studies show a common T-shirt to be 50% effective at stopping droplets in micron sizes- a towel is 70% effective.
And yes- any of them are less effective than N95- which we don’t have enough of. But ALL of them- even worn wrong- are MORE effective at protecting OTHER PEOPLE than NOTHING.
And lastly- you’re talking about people being able to choose their level of comfort with danger? Self determination- you trust people to make the best call for them. YOU DONT TRUST PEOPLE TO WASH THEIR CLOTHES OR WEAR A T SHIRT AROUND THEIR FACE PROPERLY- but you trust them to interpret clinical data and lab tests and do independent verification to decide if the best thing for EVERYONE in society is they wear a mask...
You think it is ok to let people decide wether to wear a mask or not- to take the potential risk of Covid- more importantly spreading Covid to others... but they can’t be trusted to make a decision to wash their mask?
And for the last time- THERE IS A CHOICE. Wear the mask and go out- OR- stay home. Because without the masks they’d just tell everyone to stay home anyway.
Seatbelt laws I wouldn't cry over. I'll wear mine.
I want everyone vaccinated, but I have no right to use the power of the state to force things into innocent people's bodies.
I think that we have no right to force people under threat of imprisonment or death to strap viral incubators to their face, especially not when improper (read common) wear only imbues a false sense of security.
Private citizens should not be forced to live in fear over an over blown and sensationalized fucking virus.
You can't handle the risk of fucking existing outside your house? Stay in your house.
What's next? Mandating smaller spoons to fight obesity? Banning private vehicles to stop traffic accidents? Padding every fucking corner so it's safe to trip onto a curb?
Here's a fucking choice for you. Accept that rolling out of bed in the morning comes with risks, or stay the fuck in your room and leave us be.
I'm starting to hope there's a mandatory lockdown. I'm down for some disobedience, and I whether it's civil is entirely up to authoritarians and what few enforcers you can muster.
Look at NY nursing homes to see how the state treats it's subjects.
I wrote out a reply that wasn’t very kind- not necessarily vulgar or an attack or anything- but not very kind and somewhat harsh. I’ll try again since I like you.
The American government has a responsibility to protect its citizens. Not from themselves. Nothing about these masks is intended to protect the wearer. We have established and agree- cloth masks (99.99% of them anyway) won’t protect the wearer. The entire reason the American government has a military, has police, has laws, has a constitution- is to protect its people.
The constitution is a protection against government tyranny. But any state- even one based on freedom- to run and exist and continue to do so- must have policing policing powers over its citizens. You are required to carry an ID in public. That is the law. If you leave home without an ID the police can detain you. You are required to wear clothes when you leave the house (99.99% of places..) you are required to not dump garbage or take a shit in the street BY LAW.
These things DO impact personal freedom- but they are the minimum impact to freedom to ensure public safety and secure the overall enjoyment of free commerce. Wearing a mask, carrying an ID, not leaving your trash in the street- as far as freedom is concerned these are all the same. They are all equal in concept.
On the subject of wether masks HURT or CAN hurt the wearer- I have asked repeatedly. I will ask again- produce data, produce sources. Produce data and sources with more authority and credibility than those being used presently to support wearing masks. If you cannot- you are merely talking out your ass on a hunch- and no matter how good your hunches are they are not good enough to run a country on. Give me data. You can’t even produce your own data based on your first hand experience to support what you are saying. My guess is that you haven’t been collecting and documenting data with controls and procedures that could even be peer reviewed.
And if YOU think YOU don’t need to wear a mask- that’s fine. But you have no proof that would support the idea that other people should be allowed to- by all current data on the subject- endanger OTHER people.
To counter your point about risk- you ARE free to go outside without a mask. When you roll out of bed in the morning without your mask- you accept certain risks. Risks like shops not letting you in. Risks like the people who feel you are endangering their lives not being appreciative to have you around. Risks like getting arrested. It’s a chance you take- and the consequences if that happens because of the choice YOU made, are far less than someone dying, and YOU have the choice whereas if you infect someone else- THEY do not.
But I do believe it was you ( I may be wrong) who in some other thread was talking about how it is illegal to infect a person with a disease. It is also illegal to kill a person with your car. It is illegal to drive a car drunk. Why? Because.... every bit of data we have indicates that if you drive a car drunk there is an unacceptable risk you will kill someone- who probably won’t be you.
It is one thing to say the world is full of risks. It is by its nature. But shrugging and saying “I dunnoh. Sometimes you get hit by a drunk driver- it sucks but you take that risk when you leave the house... what should we do? Take away their freedom to drive just because the Chinese Illuminati are conspiring to ban drinking and driving to consolidate their power?”
Risk inherent to life is not the same as risk that another person puts you into by making a choice. Taking away people’s “freedom” to endanger the lives of others brought behavior that every indicator we have says is irresponsible- that’s the basis of almost every law we have. What if I choose to go on a red light? What if I decide what is best for me- the level of risk I can handle- is to drive 120 in a school zone? I shouldn’t be arrested for that?
And it ain't about public safety, it's about feeling good.
The way most people and states are going about it, these masks are doing far more harm than good. Much like how the hysteria led to putting people who could still fucking breath on ventilators.
From you, @famousone, is the only place I’ve heard of people being imprisoned or abused for NOT wearing a mask.
I’m not trying to say it isn’t happening. I’m just saying it’s not this huge issue we have to rally against at all costs.
I haven’t done the research, but I’m pretty sure people have been arrested and otherwise abused for not wearing pants or whatever. And that has nothing to do with health of a population, unlike wearing masks during a pandemic.
I read a couple of the ones regarding masks, and largely, those studies are poorly conducted. One has a sample size of 6, which is in no way statistically significant.
Unfortunately, we don’t have good data. It’s possible that masks don’t help. But it is also possible that they do. And I am much more offended by being required to wear pants (serves only modesty) than being required to wear a mask (*probably* serves public safety).
This is day 0 hospital or clinic safety stuff.
Covid-19 is a flu. It will never go away, it will simply continue to ebb mutate and join the other flus we deal with on a seasonal basis. It is particularly infectious, but not extraordinarily lethal or severe compared to others, with a few exceptions. The vast majority of cases or even asymptomatic or confused for bog standard illnesses.
Let people take their own lives in their own hands. You want to live in fear? Stay locked up. I want to go to the gym? That's not your concern, you're living in your little castle while the rest of us are living and dying instead of letting undue panic steal months and years that we are not guaranteed in the first place.
I know every one likes to toss that around because we have come to view the flu as no big deal. And, in comparison, you’re right, it’s not.
So let’s ignore 132,000 Americans whose lives were meaningless. Let’s ignore the fact that we are 7 months into 2020 and already profoundly more Americans have died of Covid than died of influenza (34k) in all of 2019. (Based on CDC stats). Let’s ignore that we are seeing healthy young people hospitalized for this disease. Let’s ignore that children are surfing organ failures AFTER recovering from this disease. Let’s ignore the huge percentage of people who are suffering severe neurological defects. Let’s ignore the fact that the flu doesn’t kill this many people, doesn’t cause this kind of systemic damage.
Let’s ignore all the facts.
Without a helmet. Many swear it is the ONLY proper way to do so. I will likely never know, and I don’t begrudge them their right to it- it’s their life. I do begrudge one their right to build nuclear bombs as a hobby in their home- because that puts the safety of other people- like me or my family- in potential danger needlessly.
We are arguing nationally, not state, so do kindly stop moving your goalposts.
And the fatality count is stupidly inflated. Especially when California is counting car crashes, NY is counting deaths of people who were never tested, hospitals nationwide were given a profit motive to have more Covid deaths, and across the board deaths that would be attributed to age, cancer, or chronic conditions are now being attributed to covid.
The commands are vague and harmful because strapping a sock to your face is not like wearing an N95 is not like reusing the aforementioned N95.
Legality does not decide right or wrong. Never has, never will.
And I do follow orders to mask up in my duties as a medic. I am trained and have the resources to do so while at the quarantine barracks.
I am not going to wait for experts to tell me that left is right and up is down, I am an educated adult with a life to live and a brain of my own that works plenty fine, thank you very fucking much.
The agenda is the powers that be trying to manufacture crisis to consolidate power, but worse than even usual.
Actually, forget it. You've demonstrated consistently that in this one thing, you're beyond rationality and even the pretense of skepticism.
Tell me, what happens when a person wears the same underwear in inhospitable conditions for days on end? What happens if a person rucking for days on end don't change their socks? What happens if a person doesn't properly clean their weapon? Or God-forbid, makes unauthorized modifications for the sake of convenience? What happens when a person straps a dirty shirt to their face for days on end, maybe washing it once a week, while expecting it to keep themselves or others safe from a more infectious than typical virus?
And if you do have a proper mask, N95 at the absolute bare minimum, then whether others are masked up has no bearing on your health.
Ask a question.
Form a hypothesis, or testable explanation.
Make a prediction based on the hypothesis.
Test the prediction.
Iterate: use the results to make new hypotheses or predictions.
The powers that be are acting as though shirts work just as well as N95, filtered masks, or rebreathers. If everyone had those, plus means to maintain and replace them, than everything would be fine.
You wanna lower the bar to use government force on such a massive scale so much, you should imprison or kill people who eat sweets. That kills far more people without flubbing the numbers.
I want everyone vaccinated, but I have no right to use the power of the state to force things into innocent people's bodies.
I think that we have no right to force people under threat of imprisonment or death to strap viral incubators to their face, especially not when improper (read common) wear only imbues a false sense of security.
Private citizens should not be forced to live in fear over an over blown and sensationalized fucking virus.
You can't handle the risk of fucking existing outside your house? Stay in your house.
What's next? Mandating smaller spoons to fight obesity? Banning private vehicles to stop traffic accidents? Padding every fucking corner so it's safe to trip onto a curb?
I'm starting to hope there's a mandatory lockdown. I'm down for some disobedience, and I whether it's civil is entirely up to authoritarians and what few enforcers you can muster.
Look at NY nursing homes to see how the state treats it's subjects.