free will was given out of God’s love, and initially Man was ignorant of sin and therefore innocent of it. enter the Tree of Knowledge and the Apple (or more likely Pomegranate, depends on the translation), it became a test of sorts; we have free will, but with that came the responsibility to do right with it, having the knowledge of the innate difference between right and wrong. murder is not okay; it never was okay. it is an innate wrong, and we, bearing the understanding that it is wrong, have the responsibility to do right with that knowledge.
I do take a slightly different but largely similar view in that:
1. Such arguments as “why did/would a god do such and such…” fail both religious and scientific scrutiny. Simple put- understanding why other humans or animals do things is imprecise as is- but when we speak about a being that is omnipotent or at the very least distinctly different to a degree in observed in all of nature between organisms- one has about as much hope of understanding that mind as an ant has understanding municipal tax codes.
2. In a biblical sense, and thusly any sense of morality which is based in abrahamic faiths- the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, in my opinion, gave humans the ability to moralize. Rationalize and weigh good and evil. The root of abrahamic morality is quite simple- that which is the will of or pleases God is good, that which does not is not good. Adam and Eve were born with the ability to understand this- they had the freedom to disobey God or displease, but they did not…
.. posses the ability to determine what they believed to be good or evil. Those concepts did not exist- only the concepts of what pleases or was allowed by god and the opposite. By disobeying god (doing “bad”) and eating the fruit- Adam and Eve brought unnecessary complexity- something that doesn’t belong in a paradise, a place where things are perfect because they are as a perfect realtor made them to be and act in accord to that creators wishes. In that sense, I do not believe it wasn’t that god wanted Adam and Eve to be ignorant- it was that they already knew everything they every needed to know to be happy and fruitful and good. In theory- from the perspective that God is the root of all good and that all that pleases God or God wishes is good- one does not need to moralize or interpret. One simply needs to do as God wishes.
To the example- many people criticize religion and even the belief in a god. They point to abuse of churches and clergy and followers. This sort of a proves the point. When a priest abuses their power or uses religion to spread hate or exploit people for self enrichment- these things are not pleasing to God by the word of God. Often these religious figures and cult leaders truest believe they are doing Gods work or right. There are sects of Christianity that believe wealth is a sign of gods approval- that those blessed with wealth are obviously living a proper Christian life that pleases God and thus they are rewarded. Of course- many temples of idolicizers were wealthy and the Christian Bible is full of people and kingdoms that were prosperous… until they were punished. The pagan Egyptians were prosperous before and after the time of Moses despite being portrayed as wicked- so of course that is not true.
But these people have used their knowledge of good and evil to justify their beliefs or to reach conclusions on their own that contradict the basic truth of their faith- good is simply what pleases God and there are thousands of pages that tell us some very specific things about what pleases God and what doesn’t. It’s in that quest to read between the lines- in the ability to read a passage of scripture that says nothing about homosexuality for instance, and twist that through one’s own moral and social outlook to say “god hates homosexuality…” well… there are a whole lot of prosperous homosexuals right? 10 commandments were laid out and not a single one said anything about being gay… very odd indeed then that so many could take those words and create loopholes for whatever behavior they want to justify and prohibitions on anything they don’t like no?
Humans would by default lack the cognitive abilities, experience, and correctness of an eternal being that is all knowing and can see all moments across all possible time and distance at once. A bit like having a masters of electrical engineering and career electrician tell you exactly how to wire an outlet and what not to do, then looking at some schematics you can’t understand and saying “thanks but I’ll make my own conclusions…” and then botching it up.
So when I see arguments about how a good would have to be fallible or cruel to give people such freedom to defy them- while #1 makes clear that we can’t hope to understand the logic of such an alien and different force as a god- scientists aren’t even sure we could understand extraterrestrials if we encountered them and as I mentioned earlier- we don’t even fully understand animals or insects thinking.
But I reject the premise because if we do approach it from human logic it can still make sense perfectly.
The ability often used with a god or gods is that if a parent. Most parents don’t want their kids to suffer and have experience and advice and rules to mitigate or prevent that- but most parents also allow their kids some freedom to make their own choices, especially as they mature. From that perspective there isn’t anything foolish or sinister about the story of Adam and Eve- god provided a paradise and a road map for happiness, the freedom to live and love and have good food and good times and know no sickness or death or suffering- but it was a choice. God allowed Adam and Eve to choose and in the vein of Christianity all people are allowed to choose. They can live a life by the rules God gave- presumably not out of some desire for control as an all powerful being doesn’t generally need to give you a choice, but because god designed the system and knows how it works. God said “ye shall have a minimum of 100gigs of hard drive space and 2.4ghz of ram. You’ll want 1080p for the best…
.. experience and the Pearly gates 3500x graphics card or equivalent. This game was designed to work best with keyboard and mouse and the game loop works like this and encourages stealth play and cooperation. You can kill villagers and loot but the Karma system favors players that gain positive morality..” and well- you can play on a system that isn’t to spec and you can use a Dance pad as a controller and play loud and solo and murder and steal but your odds of getting the intended experience- true lasting happiness and eternal paradise- are slim. But you have the choice. The designer spoke. “Why is it like this though?” Firstly- see #1. If you can understand god you can create your own universe anyway you want because you’d be a god. Secondly- who cares? No matter how the system was designed there’s some mechanism by which it works. The rules are irrelevant- there would always be rules in any reality we are capable of perceiving and understanding.
Why didn’t god crate a reality without rules and just make humans capable of thriving in that space? Well- again- can’t say- but you and me and everyone and everything we know wouldn’t exist. That’s enough reason for me to be happy that things don’t exist other than they do. “But why is this world this way and not better?” Duh. It’s in the story. The world was paradise and then they ate the fruit- they took the “screw paradise, I want to figure it out myself” option. This universe is a universe we can understand. Through billions or more years of existing here and searching for truth and trying to survive and trying to make it better- humans will most likely learn the “rules” and figure out how all this works by ourselves. And, from a biblical perspective, when and if Gina s ever reach a point of true enlightenment where we discover everything we can possibly know about ur universe and we can create a true paradise- we will simply have come full circle because the knowledge to do…
.. that is going to be what we were already told. Quit stealing and robbing and hating each other. Help each other and live in harmony with your environment. Be kind and not petty or selfish or jealous or greedy or spiteful or dishonest or prideful etc. basically humans started out in Eden and said “I want to do it myself…” and that’s a very long and hard journey for creatures that don’t have the power to create things out of thin air and know everything there is to know and see the future and all knowledge. So it’s going to be a journey until humans can circle back around. “That’s not fair!” Maybe. See #1. But from the perspective of the Bible, when you die if you lived well you go to paradise. Eternity of paradise for a short stint by comparison of suffering. Which how does one get to paradise after death? By… doing right in the eyes of god right? So basically God kid down how to get to paradise and even how to live in paradise and humans keep fucking it up for ourselves.
“Why would god let humans fuck it up? Why not make us perfect?” See #1 again. But if we try to rationalize it as humans- for whatever reason we were made as we are. Religions says god is all powerful. Then again- scientifically if we were to examine a possible creator- they simply could be far more powerful than we can comprehend but still have limits. Regardless of the conclusion- each gives us all we need to understand why. Either we are this way because a much smarter being chose this, or because this was how it turned out as an inevitability of reality since this is how it is.
Ok. But why? Well- imagine your best friend or mom or dad or whatever can not see the future- all possible futures. Ok. So now imagine a life where they just don’t ask you what you want because they know. They don’t ask if you want to go to lunch, they just pick you up. They don’t ask if you want pasta or Mexican- they pick because they know. Order for you because they know what you want. You’d probably…
.. still get annoyed with them eventually. And now- let’s picture you want to date someone you like but they sabotage it and tell you they weren’t right for you. Well- some of us may be thankful for that, but most of us wouldn’t really be happy, at least over time. Those that say otherwise are likely liars because few people appreciate it when parents or anyone else dictates their lives even against clear mistakes. Like a toddler crying because you won’t let them eat an entire cake themselves or have beer.
Now flip it around- YOU can see all possible futures. You know the outcome of all choices. You know before your friend ever dreams to apply to Yale that they will not be accepted. Imagine that you already know how every movie that ever comes out will go and what your friend thinks of the film before they’ve seen it. You don’t even need to talk to them at all because you already know what they’ll say. That’s different though no? Like- you can imagine being married. You can play a sim or even pretend to be married or have a dream- but that’s not the same as it being real or experiencing it? Why do people travel when we can see pictures of all these places or watch videos or even do VR? Well- it’s certainly a human perspective. We can’t say that to an entity like god that the feelings or thoughts would be the same.
But if we interpret that existence through our own ability to perceive and relate we do end up in a place where we can understand that having absolute power and using that to force people to do anything- even things that are in their own interests- isn’t really something that sits well with human virtues.
The universe, existence, it’s all full of questions that we can’t answer yet or possibly ever. That said- we can entertain the possibility there are not gods- in that scenario morality is entirely derived from human perception and we define it based on practicality. A reversal of the religious position. In either case morality is the compass to navigating the world successfully- religion and science agree on a fundamental point- there are rules- our reality is a system of sort which functions on certain rules which cannot be broken as they are inherent to the existence of reality.
The religious view is that reality and those rules it functions on were created, ostensibly with purpose, by a creator. The scientific view is largely that reality was somewhat spontaneously generated and through an evolutionary process dictated by the rules reality must abide systems emerged which followed those rules.
Morality is a human concept on how to live well- to achieve social and societal success. Perhaps the earliest example of “law” or “code” governing our behavior to facilitate survival and prosperity for individuals or society and the species. In the religious view morality is an absolute- the system was created and the rules known ahead of time so morality remains a constant in accordance with the rules. If we abide science morality is somewhat dynamic- while the rules change we are constantly discovering and exploring said rules and the behaviors for social or societal success can change circumstantially.
Wether one believes in religion or a god or not- that doesn’t change the fact that human beings appear to have some sort of freedom of choice. It also doesn’t change the fact that morality is something we can choose. Science and the Bible agree on that last point. We determine what we see as moral or what degree we value or believe in morality if at all. Pragmatically speaking morality simply creates a framework of predictability- consistency, and generally revolves around either specifically creating consistency or in creating a framework for decision making based on individual or cultural priorities. A culture that prizes individual freedoms will generally have morals that favor actions and thinking that serve individual freedom. A culture that believes in social harmony over individual rights will have morals that support this outlook.
If we think of it in terms of the primitive- when two people meet in a jungle or desert without language or knowledge of the other- how do they know they are safe? This is the root of manners- but shared morality also has this role. Cultures and people who are monogamous are historically averse to those who lack such concepts. In a society with morals to Monogamy- you can to some degree assume that your designated partner is known as “off limits” to others. Your resources and family unit have protections in morality. Partners with good morals won’t “cheat” and single individuals with good morals won’t engage romantically or physically with another’s partner. If that moral is removed- there is risk. Likewise if your morals are to not kill children- you’ll generally disdain those who do. Your children are not safe around them, but your morality makes their children safe around you. An imbalance of power and a danger to you.
1. Such arguments as “why did/would a god do such and such…” fail both religious and scientific scrutiny. Simple put- understanding why other humans or animals do things is imprecise as is- but when we speak about a being that is omnipotent or at the very least distinctly different to a degree in observed in all of nature between organisms- one has about as much hope of understanding that mind as an ant has understanding municipal tax codes.
2. In a biblical sense, and thusly any sense of morality which is based in abrahamic faiths- the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, in my opinion, gave humans the ability to moralize. Rationalize and weigh good and evil. The root of abrahamic morality is quite simple- that which is the will of or pleases God is good, that which does not is not good. Adam and Eve were born with the ability to understand this- they had the freedom to disobey God or displease, but they did not…
So when I see arguments about how a good would have to be fallible or cruel to give people such freedom to defy them- while #1 makes clear that we can’t hope to understand the logic of such an alien and different force as a god- scientists aren’t even sure we could understand extraterrestrials if we encountered them and as I mentioned earlier- we don’t even fully understand animals or insects thinking.
But I reject the premise because if we do approach it from human logic it can still make sense perfectly.
Ok. But why? Well- imagine your best friend or mom or dad or whatever can not see the future- all possible futures. Ok. So now imagine a life where they just don’t ask you what you want because they know. They don’t ask if you want to go to lunch, they just pick you up. They don’t ask if you want pasta or Mexican- they pick because they know. Order for you because they know what you want. You’d probably…
The universe, existence, it’s all full of questions that we can’t answer yet or possibly ever. That said- we can entertain the possibility there are not gods- in that scenario morality is entirely derived from human perception and we define it based on practicality. A reversal of the religious position. In either case morality is the compass to navigating the world successfully- religion and science agree on a fundamental point- there are rules- our reality is a system of sort which functions on certain rules which cannot be broken as they are inherent to the existence of reality.
Morality is a human concept on how to live well- to achieve social and societal success. Perhaps the earliest example of “law” or “code” governing our behavior to facilitate survival and prosperity for individuals or society and the species. In the religious view morality is an absolute- the system was created and the rules known ahead of time so morality remains a constant in accordance with the rules. If we abide science morality is somewhat dynamic- while the rules change we are constantly discovering and exploring said rules and the behaviors for social or societal success can change circumstantially.