2 questions.
1. What tribe
2. Why is one of their requirements to steal horses when for 90% of their time existing as a tribe they wouldn't know wtf a horse is.
All the tribes already had their traditions and such regarding chief requirements and selection. They wouldn't have any way of having "50 horses stolen" as a thing cause they never saw a horse before the different white peoples came over.
Well I mean it's all over the internet. Every website says he had to steal horses as part of the 4 tasks to be war chief.
Edit: The articles say steal A horse, not 50.
And that makes it true? Natives have never had anything correctly described, depicted, or reported on. Ever. Period. Full stop. The only place you'll find accurate info about natives is from natives and sometimes not even then. Either his tribe changed the war chief requirements after horses became a thing(doubtful. Natives are a very traditional bunch) or it's all shitty reporting
I don't know where this trainwreck derailed. What Exactly are you saying? Obviously horses were part of the culture and a requirement to become a war chief was to steal an enemies.
So there's no way they could have incorporated the horse into the mix? They were around 75 years before Medicine Crow was born so obviosly they were already incorporated in. Haha now I feel like you're just trolling me bc it can't be any clearer.
Traditions from native tribes don't change that easy. Wars have been fought over it many times in different tribal histories. Take my tribe for example(the Cherokee nation.) there have been multiple times when incorporating white ideals and such into our culture and traditions has been talked about through out our history. It always caused huge divides in the tribe resulting in a lot of problems and rarely changed anything.
I understand the facts of native cultures far better than you could. I know native cultures first hand. I know large portions native history. I know he was given the award in 2009 and died sometimes within the last 3 years. I know natives are stubborn as mules when it comes to tradition. I know that some their traditions to have changed something drastic would have had to happen. Revolt against the elders. War between cultural traditionalists and those that want to change it. Natives don't change things lightly.
If you're meaning the WWII raid he lead whether or not he grabbed German horses doesn't make a difference to traditions of a tribe when he was ordered to attack the place. If you're saying there were horses around early enough to be part of the development, without intense problems and political/cultural division, of a culture that has only had them for 170 years when the culture itself existed for a millennium you're an idiot.
Horses aren't native to America. They were introduced by the Spanish in i think the early 1500s and spread like boars and taking around 200 years to get near them. Your links even back up my claim of around 170 of having horses. They had the 1700s to mid to 1800s, when many natives got their culture almost totally wiped out by the white federal government, for their people to change chief selection traditions.
@Brethorien, according to “My People The Souix” a book written by a Native American, a person’s wealth and status in their tribe correlated to the number of horses they had. The more horses you had the more you could carry and this the higher the status they had in the tribe. Thus according to a Native American, horses were part of their culture and traditions. This is also besides the point that each tribe, while part of larger nations, could adapt their own traditions as they wanted so maybe this singular tribe that he was part of liked horses and adapted that to their tribe.
My point was never that horses weren't part of the culture. My point was that for a tribe that only had horses for such a short time, in scale of the time the tribes exist, would have to have something drastic happen to change traditions because as a whole natives cultures are fairly stubborn when it comes to traditions and the traditions surrounding the war chief would be very old. (tribes and nations are effectually the same thing the little groups within a nation are usually called bands the Soiux being a rarity in that they have what the Iroquois used to in a alliance between similar speaking tribes.)
The Sioux had horses for what is around 400-500 years. The crow had them for maybe 170 at most. Any group that has horses has always placed a high value on them and personal wealth related to property is the most common source of status within any group of people on the planet.
Cont.
Cont.
There is, however, almost no way a very old tradition would organically change from the introduction of of another valuable resource in only 170 years in a culture as stubborn as a native tribe which means either 1. The media spread more false information about the workings of a native tribe or 2. Something fairly drastic happened within the tribes cultural leadership which has been my point throughout this entire thread.
Oh so you are not necessarily saying that it isn’t true, your point was that if it was true, something drastic would’ve hadn’t to happen to cause this. That I cannot add any insight into as I don’t have the resources to find that info haha
A lot of native history was lost due to federal influence and meddling. It's very possible that white explorers/colonists killed a large portion of the cultural leaders all at once some time causing a need to recreate things from like of people that remember them. Or sickness or another tribe being aggressive. Hell in Cherokee history or so told by my grandfather and his generation Cherokee people revolted against the medicine men who picked up sacrificing habits from the Aztecs on their migration north to the Carolina area a long long long time ago.
bethorien--Since you claim that " Natives have never had anything correctly described, depicted, or reported on. Ever. Period. Full stop" and since you are describing/depicting something about "natives," by your own definition you must be incorrect and inaccurate.
Arguing semantics is not only useless in a civilized debate (that isn't about semantics mind you) but also a sign of inability to find a proper point to oppose me. Bad debating habits are something you should fix guest.
I think he's trying to point out the inconsistencies in your argument. He's saying that since you said there's no confirmed correct information and mostly misinformation, how can your information be taken as true or correct? He's not arguing semantics, he's arguing the legitimacy of your information. And arguing semantics is completely civilized and important because of we understand words to mean something completely different then how are we to come to an understanding of each other's viewpoint.
My point wasn't that there's no correct information. It was that there is No correct information in non-native sources. The US government has been and still is actively censoring information about native tribes as a lot of it paints the government and the white colonists in a very very bad light. The only place you can get information about natives if from natives. Cherokee. org. The Cherokee Phoenix. History sites ran by native tribe governments. History tribes ran by native scholars. Everything else is of questionable quality and integrity.
The U.S. fucked up royaly when they stopped teaching Civics and started teaching social studies. Within the past 15 yrs we are finally learning just really what happened in American history thanks to the internet and it's damn near completely opposite of what we were taught/force fed as kids. Prime example is Eddison and Tesla. I don't remember Tesla's name even being mentioned in school, but Eddison was up there with George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. It's absolutely disgusting.
I went to a high school for native Americans so I don't know what exactly is in other high schools teachings for US history but the amount of people that didn't know that natives were almost exterminated by the government and the white colonists before them is astounding. I've never met a non-native that knew of the fact the Cherokees had their children taken out of their homes and forced into boarding schools and
White-ified after Cherokee schools were found to be better than the white schools in the same general area. They banned Cherokee. The amount of children that died during that is far higher than could be accidents or sickness. And only other natives that went to either the same school as me or a school that was similar knew about it.
From what I've seen you're the minority. The situation with both this and the Edison is that the people who make the history books get incentivized to focus on what the government what's focused on. They omit the tesla in favor of Edison because it promotes a more capitalist mindset rather than tesla wanting everyone to have free electricity. Same with what happened to the natives they either omit it entirely or word it so it paints the natives as the bad guys.
1. What tribe
2. Why is one of their requirements to steal horses when for 90% of their time existing as a tribe they wouldn't know wtf a horse is.
Edit: The articles say steal A horse, not 50.
The Sioux had horses for what is around 400-500 years. The crow had them for maybe 170 at most. Any group that has horses has always placed a high value on them and personal wealth related to property is the most common source of status within any group of people on the planet.
Cont.
There is, however, almost no way a very old tradition would organically change from the introduction of of another valuable resource in only 170 years in a culture as stubborn as a native tribe which means either 1. The media spread more false information about the workings of a native tribe or 2. Something fairly drastic happened within the tribes cultural leadership which has been my point throughout this entire thread.
White-ified after Cherokee schools were found to be better than the white schools in the same general area. They banned Cherokee. The amount of children that died during that is far higher than could be accidents or sickness. And only other natives that went to either the same school as me or a school that was similar knew about it.