Like most people, I believe that child predators are disgusting and not something society should allow. However- indeed there is more to a functional justice system which protects the innocent than simply declaring: “come on- we all know who’s guilty here…”
We are talking about a massive conspiracy spanning the globe over decades. It isn’t the first attempt of any country to try and prosecute Epstein or his cohorts. This is complex stuff spanning jurisdictions and continents. Prosecuting clients is a mess. Depending on where an act took place or what exactly transpired a statue of limitations may apply and many of these clients would only be guilty of misdemeanors or relatively minor crimes under US laws which likely wouldn’t even carry a prison sentence. The expense and effort to investigate each possible client coupled with the fact we are taking about some of the most powerful people in the world in some cases… and in many cases you’re talking about spending possibly 20+ years…
.. and millions or more in costs to MAYBE, land a few minor charges…? Not that there is no point in justice or there shouldn’t be justice done- but if you think about the hundreds of thousands of hours and the resources in federal and or state prosecution and investigation departments that would be tied up and ALL the other ongoing or potential investigations and arrests that could be made and what makes more sense- busting up active sex trafficking rings or using all the resources that could have gone to that in order to try and stick some no jail time charges to some guys that will basically walk without consequences in their lives?
To bust the clients, there isn’t a list exactly. People met Epstein. They went to his parties. He did things other than sex trafficking. So just hey can’t just arrest anyone who ever knew the guy and charge them with sex trafficking and hope they find something later… to get an arrest warrant you need to have some proof first. A functional justice system doesn’t work on “arrest first and figure out what they did later…” are there politics? Sure. Prominent liberals and democrats like the Clintons palled around with Epstein at times. So did prominent conservatives and republicans like Donald Trump. So no, neither democrats or republicans are particularly keen to approach this as a “blame anyone who ever talked to the guy” situation.
But how do we even prove who was a client? In most of these cases it comes down to maybe the word of the accused client, a particular girl, and MAYBE one or two other people- one common one being a dead Epstein. Ok. But- what about when the girls won’t testify? Cases accusing Prince Edward and Donald Trump for example we’re settled- the Donald Trump case was settled before anyone got served even. Finding the victims, getting legally admissible testimony, and having that testimony survive review given the common factors of time, lack of non circumstantial evidence and corroboration, and some of the richest most powerful folks in the world… your odds aren’t good there.
Ok, so here and there various authorities and such around the world have taken their swings here and there trying to bring some justice down on clients- varying success but overall not a whole lot. So why not go after the conspirators? Well… Giselle Maxwell… and who else…? That’s a pretty big problem since international super traffickers tend to be careful. Epstein… look up his legal history. They’ve failed to make significant charges stick with sentencing before too. So basically- they can “prosecute down,” try to hand charges on people like drivers or basically more “regular people” who don’t have layers of insulation and the money for the big lawyers to argue for them. So they could basically lock up a bunch of contractors and such so people could feel better maybe. Of course- if they do that, they’d be locking up some of the only people who could help
Them make cases agaisnt the “big fish” and giving up the major tools to entice the “small fish”- immunity or plea deals….
.. which brings us to… something like this is a HUGE web. Having to side step the zealous lawyers and tight social circles and delicate, complex politics of super rich criminals adds complication and barriers to information. The fact the enterprise was shut down makes new evidence or things like taps etc. generally scarce as far as what might come out of them. In other words… brining down the hammer on street gangs and drug dealers is hard enough and can take years of work before the bust and years or even decades of prosecution and work after. So yes, it’s been some years since Epstein was arrested the “last” time- justice moves slowly. How long was the Depp/Heard trial and that was a couple movie stars arguing about allegations of abuse. With tapes where they both admit to abuse.
So yeah- if anything is going to come of this whole mess maybe don’t expect it to happen faster than the amount of time it takes to settle a basic libel/slander case between a couple moderate rate actors in two courts.
If you do want to see something happen- make sure to write your representatives and speak up and keep pressure up so that elected officials don’t think people have forgotten or don’t care- but know it probably isn’t going to be fast, and when justice is fast it is seldom just.
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Edited 1 year ago
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· 1 year ago
How do we know we're talking about "some of the most powerful people in the world"? How do we have any idea who has actually commited a crime and/or was aware they were dealing with underaged victims of trafficking? Apparently it is an inevitable routine of obscenely rich men to have sex with very young women who get paid for it one way or the other. That's nauseating when you look at it but pretty much perfectly legal anywhere. Types like Epstein always love to surround themselves with "the rich and mighty" for various reasons, all that doesn't mean Jack. There is one guy publicly accused, Prince Andrew who is apparently a stupid knob and has been about as influential as the Queen's corgis, and that's basically it. Delusional leftists like to insinuate Trump did dirty, rightist claim Clinton "must have done" something but the truth is we don't know anything. Occam's razor is strongly in favor of the Epstein-suicide theory which is of course ignored by the usual net mob.
To open, I’m not disagreeing with you at all. It seems for the most part we see eye to eye. On to the next thing- as you say- when I say “some of the rushers most powerful people in the world…” I’m not saying that we can take for granted that any of those people committed actual crimes in this context (more on this point later…) I am saying that the investigation into all the possible suspects as clients or accomplices/conspirators in the Epstein case are basically anyone who’s ever spent time alone or in close company with Epstein or his personal property or even his personal associates. As the man had quite a network in politics and business etc- an investigation to find his clients for example would largely be poking in the dark at a list that includes some very connected and wealthy or powerful people- hoping that one or more of them happens to decide to confess or left some damning evidence laying about in plain view.
That’s a big part of the challenge- it generally isn’t as easy, even for law enforcement, to just get detailed itineraries or personal documents or financial statements or even to ask a single question of wealthy/powerful people. Even if they did NOTHING wrong- a good lawyer won’t usually just give things to the police for asking if they don’t have to or they don’t see a direct advantage because not only is it possible that something in that information can be used to open or further a non related suspicion or investigation, and not only can a completely innocent person come under suspicion because of a coincidental fact or missing information or error- but often times the documents of the rich and powerful can provide to even remotely knowledgeable eyes, insights to trade secrets, private matters, and various “insider information” on “secrets of their success.”
For example- if Jeff Bezos had intended to counter Musk on Twitter, or if board members were moving to oust Tim Cook- up until the point they acted or were legally required to act openly, they’d probably want to keep those things secret to prevent interference or competition from formulating a counter strategy. Other examples are things like travel plans or real estate deals etc. sometimes a store like Target will buy a location just to keep Walmart from buying it- if there are no nearby suitable locations the competitor would have to go through building from scratch. Things like this- legitimate and legal things that can be ruined if one isn’t prudent. And then of course there is the actual crime. Lol.
It isn’t universal but it is pretty much so- everyone is a criminal most likely in some way no matter how minor- but if you’re rich and/or powerful…? Oh yeah. Almost 100% you’re a criminal and not just the “Jay walking” type because
1. You don’t earn 100+ times the average upper class lifetime earnings unless you’re a literal miracle worker or you are crooked.
2. Am astronomically small number of human beings can be given the money and ability to do almost anything they want and not end up doing some things that aren’t legal if you give them enough time to get bored.
So now add in all the non illegal things that a person can do that can mess them up- civil or family suits, be “cancelled” for etc- and it’s basically 100% that every one of those people have something they don’t want to come to light for whatever reason.
Now- knowing this- we really could probably take all the National or international politicians at least, anyone with a vastly disproportionate wealth that…
.. didn’t cure cancer or invent cold fusion or something like that… and we probably could throw them all in jail and if we had a magic ball to tell us how many of them shouldn’t be in jail by the law… it would probably tell us “they all belong there.” So that is true. But as you say- that’s a terrifying idea to anyone who values freedom and justice. “I know you’re guilty so I’m going to punish you wether I can prove you’re guilty or not…”
That is a system where whoever holds the power to the court holds the power to rule any way they see fit. No one would be safe. So yeah. It very much sucks that a lot of sick people are walking around right now and we could probably grab a bunch and keep something like 80-90% rightful conviction to just lock them up because we “know they did it..” and probably have 95-99.9999% rightful conviction for SOME crime that warrants prison time…
But even at those numbers- we are putting away people who didn’t do it and not giving them a chance to prove they didn’t, and without that trail of accountability- we would have no way to know who was innocent and just got caught up by chance or if any of the innocent people who were locked up had been purposely implicated by someone who wanted them out of the way and knew that without a chance to defend themselves that no one would ever find out. That’s absolutely terrifying. Or it should be. It always amazes me the lack of self awareness humans so often display. When something bad happens- especially something like this where the victims are children or groups society really feels for and wants to protect; or whenever the accused or implicated are those society dislikes or enjoys see suffer- people demand immediate and harsh action. But that is literally the reason we can’t have immediate and harsh action
Perhaps if we could keep ourselves more objective and level headed justice could move at least a bit faster, but we are quick to what to essentially form posses and use kangaroo courts or vigilante mobs to carry out summary judgments of a bunch of people who are pissed off, scared, disgusted- basically people who just want to blame something or someone- or already have something or someone to blame in mind and just want to pin something to them to be able to justify the punishment they want to inflict but some they have the excuse to support. So it really does suck, but as you aptly say… we really don’t “know” anything. We have some
Circumstantial information and we each just take that and frame it with our own biases or experiences and perspectives to spell out what we guess must be the truth that…
.. those floating bits of information must point to. We need more information before we can even accuse most people who might be implicated let alone try or jail them; and sadly under the circumstances of reality more information probably isn’t an easy thing to come by. These things always seem to take far more time than we wish and never produce a resolution that seems as satisfying as one would hope. While hoping and wishing I suppose we would be better off hoping or wishing these sorts of things didn’t happen at all, but that doesn’t seem likely to work either.
I am far more disappointed at the lack of steps taken to understand and prevent this sort of thing than I am that the investigation hasn’t wrapped in a movie ending in these few short years.
We are talking about a massive conspiracy spanning the globe over decades. It isn’t the first attempt of any country to try and prosecute Epstein or his cohorts. This is complex stuff spanning jurisdictions and continents. Prosecuting clients is a mess. Depending on where an act took place or what exactly transpired a statue of limitations may apply and many of these clients would only be guilty of misdemeanors or relatively minor crimes under US laws which likely wouldn’t even carry a prison sentence. The expense and effort to investigate each possible client coupled with the fact we are taking about some of the most powerful people in the world in some cases… and in many cases you’re talking about spending possibly 20+ years…
Them make cases agaisnt the “big fish” and giving up the major tools to entice the “small fish”- immunity or plea deals….
If you do want to see something happen- make sure to write your representatives and speak up and keep pressure up so that elected officials don’t think people have forgotten or don’t care- but know it probably isn’t going to be fast, and when justice is fast it is seldom just.
1. You don’t earn 100+ times the average upper class lifetime earnings unless you’re a literal miracle worker or you are crooked.
2. Am astronomically small number of human beings can be given the money and ability to do almost anything they want and not end up doing some things that aren’t legal if you give them enough time to get bored.
So now add in all the non illegal things that a person can do that can mess them up- civil or family suits, be “cancelled” for etc- and it’s basically 100% that every one of those people have something they don’t want to come to light for whatever reason.
Now- knowing this- we really could probably take all the National or international politicians at least, anyone with a vastly disproportionate wealth that…
That is a system where whoever holds the power to the court holds the power to rule any way they see fit. No one would be safe. So yeah. It very much sucks that a lot of sick people are walking around right now and we could probably grab a bunch and keep something like 80-90% rightful conviction to just lock them up because we “know they did it..” and probably have 95-99.9999% rightful conviction for SOME crime that warrants prison time…
Circumstantial information and we each just take that and frame it with our own biases or experiences and perspectives to spell out what we guess must be the truth that…
I am far more disappointed at the lack of steps taken to understand and prevent this sort of thing than I am that the investigation hasn’t wrapped in a movie ending in these few short years.