Trolling on 50

Die* not time twice

So you're saying it's ok because god decided that. Ok then, i'm done with you

*eats popcorn*

*grabs soda*

It's funny how he downvote instead of argue. Oh wait, you don't have any arguments.

I don't see you retorting the guest and you said you were done he/she might be able to recognize a lost cause when they see one

I may had not voiced properly. I said "I'm done" because his "argument" was that if something bad happens, then it's because god wants it and it's... fine?. I can't stand that -.-
I was expecting something to prove that god exists

I'm sorry I didn't realize we were all entitled to the perfect life

you're so right, it would be so much easier to believe in him, if we thought about him more when we were fortunate rather than during the bad times. We forget so quick what we have been given

I would like to believe, just because I know that always help on bad times. But I didn't see any proves that he exists, and there are proves against it existance (I'm talking about refutation of the religious books and some of their proves, not against that he has created the universe. I would like to talk about that, but there is a limit of characters)

well it's obvious i wont change your mind, which is okay. we are free to believe what we will :) i just usually think it is sad, what kind of hope is there if you believe in nothing

The hope that you have to make your live worth it, and not expect something better after this. At least I think so, but if something different makes you happy it's okay, in the end both ways are supposed to bring you happiness.

yeah, im glad we can both see it that way

darkanhell, I know what you mean, but no one can prove God exists, that's why they call it faith. All I can do is tell you my experience. Once when I was younger, I was having an awful time in my life and I hadn't started an essay that was due the next day and I was going out of my mind. Then I felt a hand on my shoulder and suddenly felt very calm. I finished the essay quickly and felt calmer for days afterwards. I know what I say won't make anyone convert or something, and I have more questions than answers myself, but all I can do is share my story and hope you'll get to a point where you are sure of your beliefs, whatever they are.

As I said, I'm not messing with peoples believes, only trying to find some answers. It's okay if you believe :)

I hope you do find answers someday. :)

Hey, if you're that intent on making God the bad guy, go for it. You'd just be lying to yourself in that case. It's almost like you think God either did everything or He did nothing. Believe it or not, there are possibilities between the extremes.

I'm not trying to make him the bad guy, I'm using your own arguments to view the bad side. Why the good things are because of him but the bads aren't?

Because if they were, he wouldn't be God. It would create a logical contradiction. After all, if God exists, Satan does too. And the previous comment about God not being able to control free will exactly explains why it would be illogical to attribute the attacker's actions to God.

I'm gonna avoid the thing that if Satan exists it's because God WANTED it to exist.
But again, if God is unable to control free will because he made us that way, therefore ALL the actions made by us are only because we wanted it, so he doesn't take responsability neither for good or bad things.
And what's more, all of what is happening, had happened or it's going to happen, God knows it (because of his definition). So, when he created everything and he let us have free will, he already knows all of this. So it seems to me that if something bad (and good) exists, it's because he LET us make it, while he could had stopped it.
Finaly, if God isn't capable of control us (the free will), thereore he's no longer onmipotent, and consecuently he lost our definition of God.
(I want to remark that I don't want to make us fight, It's only because I haven't found a proper answer to my arguments and I want somebody to make me change my mind)

I like how the surgeon gets no credit at all.
So if I see someone bleeding out - I can either do gods way by calling an ambulance and that will save him or do gods way in letting him die alone.
I know! Il just let him bleed out because if god really wanted to save that guy he would send someone else, right ?

I don't want to drag this on too much -- this isn't an ideal place for lengthy discussion. I'll just say: 1) the definition of God you are working with is definitely not the same as mine.
2) There's a difference between God wanting us to make our own choices and God wanting us to make mistakes. He never wants us to do bad things -- to the contrary, He cries for our sins and suffers for our pains. But without the freedom to make mistakes, we would never learn or grow. He lets His children pass through sorrow so that they can know the good from the evil, and know true happiness. In the context of everything that happened before this life and everything that will happen after, everything that you're confused about makes perfect sense. For now, I can simply assure you that, if we cooperate, God would have us suffer as little pain as possible. The rest was taken by Jesus, but if we refuse to accept Jesus's sacrifice on our behalf, it's only logical that we will have to pay it ourselves.

1- The UNIVERSAL definition of God is that he is onmiscient, omnipotent and all that. So he should have know that.
2- I understand your point here, but the thing is God can (or could) make everything perfectly good, so what's the point of letting us suffer?
And you didn't answer to the third.
PS: Guys, if you have a point to do, say it, but dont downvote and go, that don't help us

Because of our free will there is no possible way that there can be no bad in this world. That's just the way life is. Have you ever watched The Time Machine? No matter how many times you change an event, the same result happens. Yes, God knows everything that will happen before it happens. I guess he would rather create our world with some beauty and pain than not have a world at all.

My point is that if something is as it is, it's because he wanted it. I mean, he could create the world without pain, and he didn't, for no reason.

His intention was for us to live in the Garden of Eden free from pain and suffering but temptation and disobedience banished Adam and Eve. Now, he knew this was going to happen but perhaps in every scenario Eve somehow would always eat that apple thus creating free will. He would then decide that he would rather take us as imperfect rather than the alternative of starting over because he has a greater plan than that.

Think about it though, what kind of world would it be like without pain? We all can't live forever. Everyone experiences heartbreak at least once. Accidents happen. Heaven has no pain or suffering.

Eve and Adam didn't exist, so that's not a valid point for me..

So instead of giving us heaven directly, he let us suffer and then "compensate" us with heaven? :/

I'm not really sure of what you want to hear.

A prove that he exists, or a justifing of all I said from your point of view. I repeat I would like to believe, but the logic doesn't let me yet

Heaven for us was supposed to be the Garden of Eden. Free will = no more Garden. Thus now we live like this.

I can take that, but then it brings all the Creationism history, which didn't happen. So we're stuck again on "we suffer because he let we to do so"
(and sorry if i don't answer quickly now, it's time for me to sleep)

I honestly wish I could give you hard proof or evidence. Me and my best friend have this discussion now and then. God isn't about having proof though, it's about faith. I don't believe everything is an accident or coincidental, I believe there is a higher being. I love my life, even though I've had a lot of struggles. Free will has allowed me to live the way I live and though I'm not perfect God accepts me the way I am. A world without pain couldn't function because we are imperfect beings.

Go to sleep, I'm sleepy too I need a nap. I'll comment later or tomorrow. Btw I'm glad this is more of a discussion rather than a debate.

There is no universal definition of God, darkenhall. I'm sorry to tell you you're wrong, but you're really not in a place to define my beliefs. I don't tell you what you believe, so please try to refrain from describing my God to me. If you want to understand me you gotta listen to me.
Here's my two cents on the above discussion. As I stated, context is the key to understanding. I disagree a little with kayrey in that I don't believe God intended that we all live a sheltered life in Eden. When it comes down to it, I believe one of God's desires is that we develop the strength and independence to stand on our own and fight and win our own battles. Obviously that cannot happen if we never face any difficulties. Muscle is strengthened by being broken down, not by resting in a comfy sling. The same is true for spirits. Obviously not everything that happens will make sense, but only because we don't see the eternal context we're in.

God gave us free will and doesn't keep us in heaven because he wants us to learn,keeping us in heaven would be a paradise full of ignorance

- It's okay kayrey, I'm not messing with other believes, just trying to get some answers from the people who believe.
- @supernovamike, In fact, there is a universal definition of God: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/god
"perfect, omnipotent, omniscient" etc.
So I'm basing my arguments on the definition accepted by most of the people, but hey, define "your god" to me and I'll work around that.
On the other hand, while I agree on that we have to suffer to stand on our own, what I'm saying is that we can think of "another reality" which god could have make, where we could be happy or in other words, where there's no existance of "bad" things. Of course on our world "bad things are neccesary" (for some things) but in another reality, it couldn't be. So, why did he make it this way?
- and d*8, that's not true, because we could have lived on paradise AND know near everything. Even if it's not possible, our world is full of ignorance. I don't get the difference.

if you didnt have bad times, the good wouldn't feel that great. imagine never knowing any type of bad, you would not be thankful for any of the good you receive, you wouldn't even know.

Yeah, the paradigm of "if bad don't exist, neither does the good".
But think about this:
God is hypothethicaly the "greatest" thing that may exist. In fact, he IS the good in himself. So, it CAN exist 100% good without bad (I know, Satan and shit, but if satan exists.. oh well, I think I've already explained that).
So yeah, you couldn' be able to expirience the "good" as we now expirience it, but we could live only in good. Which is, in fact, the point of "heaven". He's gonna let us know how things could have been after we die?
PS: I've been all my life on catholical schools, so all I say is what they teach to us.

well im not catholic so i wouldn't know. there are a lot of comments on here so im not going to read them all but id like to say this, assuming your argument is based from science: If you went back 100 years you would be way ahead of the time, the stuff they tried to teach you would be ridiculous to you. That's because we are always learning, scientific theories are just that, theories. in 100 years they will think our knowledge was completely ridiculous and useless. Now, God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Our 'knowledge' to him is nothing. So i think i will go with the one who really knows :)

Yeah. And his knowledge is written in the Bible. So we should lapidate women, kill our family if they are of another religion, and all that stuff. If you read at least a piece of it, you would notice is written by mens with their knowledge back then as you have said. So, or the Bible is wrong, or that is not the word of God, which in that case I don't get why it is the sacred book.
Btw, the entire life of Jesus is a cliche. So, yeah... I beg you to bring me some reasons why I should believe.

the bible does have flaws i didn't say it was completely correct. based of what you are saying i assume you are talking about the old testament? i will admit, i have not read the entire thing. But, i have read the entire new testament, and it brings the gospel of love. Also, death isn't the punishment everyone thinks it is, at least not to people who believe in God. Dieing lets go of all this earthly pain and takes us to the other side.

Yeah, most of that stuff is on the old testament, but that don't take away the fact that "it's the god word" (as they say on prays), so it MUST be correct. In fact most of the time the believers tend to lean on it. I haven't read the entire thing, I just talk about what I've seen.
And ok, let's take death isn't a punishment. That don't excuse the actual thing that it's taking away a life, which by the way it's a sin. And even if it wasn't, and death only brings us pleasure, then we start all over again with the "pleasure and pain, good and bad" thing.
I don't really get your point (I'm not being rude)

no it's okay, the way i see it the bible is misinterpreted. And, yes, killing is a sin, and they will be punished. But to the people who have lost someone due to someone else, they know that they are no longer in pain. And i don't know everything, but the religion you are using to make your argument is a lot different from mine, :) that's why nothing we say really correlates. I don't know what happens when we die, not exactly, and i don't think anyone really does, but i don't need to know everything to trust God. (and im not trying to be rude or arguing, i like what you have to say; its good to know what your talking about but once again im not catholic so i dont really believe that either :)

Oh well, if you're not catholic I have nothing to say. I mean, I still being atheist, but since christianism is the only religion I know enough to argue, I can't make a point there.
I now feel rare for arguing each other talking about different things lol.
And.. Damm, this is literally the first argue I have about this that doesn't end on "you don't know shit" or "leave me alone". Congrats haha.

haha, no i like talking about religion, but i dont like to be rude and argue. people are crazy for trying to defend their religion and then acting like a jerk. haha, btw, yeah i am a christian just not a catholic. But i like what you have said, i like to learn about other religions anyway :)

God wanted to create beings that would love him unconditionally. True love is an act of free will. With free will comes our own selfish desires which then leads us to our imperfection. I guess thats my view of why he created this imperfect world instead of an alternate perfect one. There is no straight answer, you have to look at the bigger picture

That's contradictory. He creates something to love him? He is autosufficient, so what's the point of doing that? Make him feel better? Which doesn't make sense, because it sounds like he has needs, which it's impossible by his own definition

Thats not really what I meant. He created us, for a purpose that no one can really answer but him. The love part, I meant that if we are to give thanks to him and love him we need free will in order for it to mean something. Without that we're robots who do good.

that's a nmice point kayrey, i think i kinda agree, i get what you are saying anyway.

Thank you deelynn, it's hard to put my thoughts into words sometimes.

darkanhell, the reason we have the world we have instead of one where everyone is forced to be good is simple. As explained, there would be no chance for growth in that world. No one would really be able to choose, no one would develop the strength and independent purity that is needed for whatever it is that God has in mind for us. Yes, we could hypothetically have a world with no bad in it, but then what? What function would that serve? My concept of God is inseparably tied with the idea of improvement and progression. That other world has none of that. That's why God didn't choose it. It's also part of why Satan did, but that's another story.
Just regarding your comment about heaven being a place of 100% good, that's true, but it's also true that every single person there has experienced bad.

I agree on that we need to be free to mean something, but the point is he doesn't have the need to create something for the solely porpose to love him.
What function do we serve now supernovamike? I mean, what's the difference between this and the hypothetical good world?.
Enough with Satan, it's a God creation, everything he does God knows it and don't stop him, so he is the responsible (I mean, at the end he is)
And.. yeah, every single person has expirienced bad, but for what? I mean, God haven't expirienced bad, and he is perfect. So we, as his creations, as his reflection, wouldn't be able to be "happy" without bad?

i want to reply so bad, but you guys wouldn't get it cause different religions. ahhh, but in mine, God was once like us, and we have the chance to be like him, but it is up to us, we get to decide. that is why satan is there to give us another option. men are free to choose liberty and eternal life, or death and 'hell'-- satans way. :) (just for a different view point :)

Oh well, I can't argue against that, as I mentioned before I don't know enough yet. Maybe someone can

hahaha, nah no one needs to argue, im just sayin, there are a lot of different beliefs out there, i think the most important thing though, is to be a good person, and be nice to people :)

Totally agree with that