1) Wearing revealing clothing does not necessarily mean that she wants attention from every single person. It may be because she's too warm, for herself, or to attract someone in particular.
2) Evolutionary psychology is a shitty excuse for bad behaviour.
3) Comparing the sexual desire of breasts to breastfeeding is creepy.
Tl;Dr: This is a male fantasy. Please do not try this at home.
1) this whole point is a contradictory mess. i know for a fact that they make exercise bras that do not show a lot of cleavage and breathe well, so that argument makes no sense. if she wants to wear it for herself, fair enough, but how are we supposed to know the difference? if she wants to attract some one in particular then she has to accept the fact that others will be attracted, anything else is childish.
2) maybe, but it nevertheless is a part of or psyche.
3) maybe, don't judge man :)
tl;dr women who get upset at us for looking need to get over themselves.
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· 10 years ago
There are many reasons why a woman might choose to show cleavage. That doesn't mean you automatically get to be creepy about it. It's one thing to look, and quite another to stare. What you're saying right now is that men should be allowed to make women uncomfortable without repercussions.
i said no such thing, a woman's reasons for showing cleavage are her own and that is a fair point. what is not fair, is showing cleavage to attract Mr. A (btw the reason he would even be interested is explained in the post you are trashing) and being upset when Mr. B - Z looks. it seems that women would like us to turn on and off our desires when it's convenient for them. I'm not arguing looking vs. creepy staring, every man with common sense knows that's stupid. I'm arguing plain looking.
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· 10 years ago
Simply glancing at breasts and then looking away out of respect is unlikely to offend women. Breasts have become fetishized in our society, and we both know that many people find them sexually attractive. I think we're mostly in agreement. I just take issue when people try to shirk personal responsibility by claiming that their behaviour is innate.
what is likely to offend a woman varies depending on the woman. so as i am saying how are we to know? A lot of our behavior is innate though that's my point. our attraction to each other is one aspect of such behavior and there is very little of your conscious mind that comes into play. there's a reason i am attracted to a woman's breasts and not a man's chest. And the 'fetishisation' of breasts have only really been a thing in euro-centric societies and cultures and has been so for quite a while.
A man can't MAKE a woman feel uncomfortable. How she chooses to feel and react in a situation is under her control only. Don't blame men for women having issues about being sexual creatures.
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· 10 years ago
Nice victim blaming you've got there, guest. Does rationalizing make you feel better?
Pie, if you can't tell if a woman's actions are for you or not, assume no until you know otherwise. You can find out without being a creep.
But somehow its okay for woman to stare and even giggle at hot shirtless guys? Oh yeah, i forgot every woman is a victim as ricepudding puts it
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· 10 years ago
Oh really? I don't recall ever saying that all women are victims and that it's fine to objectify men. It rather sounds like you're putting up a straw man argument right now. As a matter of fact, I actually said that both men and women should treat each other with respect and not stare.
Really, so you never said "nice victim blaming you've got there?" And no you never did mention that we should treat each other with respect. Im making a strawman argument? How about you stop lying to yourself about what you say... lol
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· 10 years ago
Talking about victim blaming is not the same thing as calling all women victims. And yes, I did talk about mutual respect in one of my comments here. Check the messages before making things up.
Other than wanting attention, I think women wear this kind of stuff for comfort. Imagine having a shirt that goes up to your neck ALL THE TIME.
So I think it's okay. Also if they get offended, just a nice comment/sorry would be alright, and no need for *either* part to make a big deal.
That said, I can't help but look too.
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Edited 10 years ago
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· 10 years ago
I agree broadly with what you're saying but:
"Imagine having a shirt that goes up to your neck ALL THE TIME."
You mean like every shirt worn by every guy who doesn't look like a colossal douchebag? Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious about the interaction between breasts and a high neckline, but I fail to see how it would be uncomfortable.
Aw, well I'm glad you think it's not uncomfortable. I was imagining it like a torturing turtle neck haha
You know, my point is, people have the right to wear what is comfortable for them
I agree that people should be allowed to wear whatever they find comfortable, but that doesn't change the fact that clothing which reveals body parts people find sexually attractive will result in people looking, it's a simple fact of human behaviour. Yes, staring is creepy, but looking is inevitable.
If you re-read my first comment, yeah!! And I said none should make a really big deal! I even stated I look too. I just wanted to say that we shouldn't say they are exposing themselves with the intention of getting attention.
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· 10 years ago
Of course not. I think this issue is one where the majority of people agree, it's just where you draw the looking/staring line.
The looking/staring line is drawn wherever people are uncomfortable. Don't like, flip your shit if you think someone is staring, but if somebody tells you to please stop staring, do it.
I bet if I showed a third of my balls I would get crucified
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· 10 years ago
Cry me a river about how tough it is to be a man. Seriously, you're complaining that women can show some of their breasts publicly? You can go completely topless, for fuck's sake. Edit: Just to clarify, I fully support men's rights as well as feminism. I'm just saying that this is one instance when men have a definite advantage.
Why would anyone want to go completely topless. Even in hot weather. In fact you can pick out the "trash" by seeing who isn't wearing a top. Plus why are you arguing that it isn't fair that women can't go topless, when right above you have commented that men shouldn't look at breasts; you can't have it both ways princess.
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· 10 years ago
You've misunderstood my comments; I'm not saying that men shouldn't ever look at breasts. All I'm saying is that men and women should treat each other with respect. Most people find it uncomfortable to be stared at. I think women should be able to go topless without it being a big deal, same as with men. I don't know what it's like in your area, but in mine, topless men aren't trashy.
I honestly find it flattering if my chest gets looked at. As long as they aren't being a complete pervert about it, or aren't too old(like no more that a year or two older than me) then I think it's acceptable. Heck, I stare at boobs(out of jealousy.....yeah, jealousy)
Tara, it's fine that you enjoy it. Just be aware that others may take your enjoyment as condoning their actions with others. Many women are not flattered and should not just change the way they feel because others do.
this is degrading towards women. men in our society are not animals and should be able to control themselves around women. You cannot blame any women for dressing how she wants to, it is her right. This is like saying that if a women dresses as a slut she is 'asking to be raped' which is not at all the case. It is not women who should change the way they dress but it is men who should learn is control themselves
When men look at nice breasts, massive amounts of dopamine are released in the pleasure centres. This response is exactly the same as that garnered from insufflating cocaine or winning at gambling. Dopamine is a behaviour modifier; it makes us repeat actions which stimulate the dopamine release. Looking at breasts is one of those situations. It literally makes men "high" to look at breasts; it also makes them measurably happier. Do you really want men to deny themselves small pleasures for the sake of your body shame. And if you have ever met an addict, you will know that dopamine is a powerful mistress that is not easily shaken. In fact this dopamine response is so ingrained in the brain that a straight man will experience the same response to breasts until the day he dies.
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· 10 years ago
Interesting, but is that true of all men in all cultures? Responses like that can be learned.
I think the underlying message here is that this man is a dickhead who wants to justify staring at boobs in any way he can, instead of just being a respectful and kind human being, but that's just me.
There's a difference between glancing at and staring. I'm not going to get mad at somebody for glancing at my breasts, but I might ask them to stop, and if they start on some big long rant as to why they should be able to, they better expect some problems. We're allowed freedom of expression, and no one is allowed freedom to sexually harass people (yes, staring counts if it makes someone uncomfortable). No, it's not okay for women to be jerks when you just glanced, but if she's clearly uncomfortable (turns away or asks you to stop), then fucking stop.
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· 10 years ago
I read an interesting study a while back, it used a special pair of glasses with two pairs of cameras, one pair focussed on the wearer's eyes and one pair facing outwards, these track where a person is looking at any given moment. It was found that everyone, regardless of gender, when they meet someone will look at first the face, then the chest, then the hips, in quick succession before their gaze returns to the person's face. It appears to be an automatic behavior and is believed to be part of the process of gender recognition. It's not got that much to do with this post, I just through it was interesting.
I have a big chest. One of the few parts of my body I am proud of. If I show some cleavage, it does not bother me at all if you look (b/c I know they're nice lol). I'd only get offended if you grabbed them without my permission. Otherwise I feel like if I put them on display, I should not be offended that you look. Boobs are pretty, and soft and were at one point in your life your only form of sustenance, and men are programmed to like boobs. I have a gay friend who despite the fact that he's sexually attracted to men loves to look and feel boobs.
2) Evolutionary psychology is a shitty excuse for bad behaviour.
3) Comparing the sexual desire of breasts to breastfeeding is creepy.
Tl;Dr: This is a male fantasy. Please do not try this at home.
2) maybe, but it nevertheless is a part of or psyche.
3) maybe, don't judge man :)
tl;dr women who get upset at us for looking need to get over themselves.
Pie, if you can't tell if a woman's actions are for you or not, assume no until you know otherwise. You can find out without being a creep.
So I think it's okay. Also if they get offended, just a nice comment/sorry would be alright, and no need for *either* part to make a big deal.
That said, I can't help but look too.
"Imagine having a shirt that goes up to your neck ALL THE TIME."
You mean like every shirt worn by every guy who doesn't look like a colossal douchebag? Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious about the interaction between breasts and a high neckline, but I fail to see how it would be uncomfortable.
You know, my point is, people have the right to wear what is comfortable for them
Sorry guys, its 3 am here and everything seems so funny