Feminism is an ideology. One that started as advocating equal rights for men and women, sure. But you know what else is an ideology that started as an advocacy of equal rights for everyone? Communism. But we all know how that turned out, didn't we? Poor Karl Marx must be spinning in his grave from cringe and regret.
My point is, the thought of equality is nice and all, but just like any other ideology/philosophy, it can be easily exploited by people who seek power. Yet there will still be people saying "but the definition says it's equal rights!" Yeah, that's the 19th century definition. But what most third wave feminists seek is power over men. I mean just look at it, the most frequently discussed "problems" by feminists on the internet are "mansplaining", "compliments are bad", and the wage gap which has been debunked a hundred times. So yeah, okay, if you want equality, call yourself an egalitarian, because what modern feminism has become is far from that.
I'd also like to add that EVERYTHING looks like a good idea when you read its definition in the dictionary. That's because dictionaries are trying to present a neutral, unbiased definition of things. Example: "A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government." Sounds okay, doesn't it? Hierarchy, yeah that's important in having a stable state, right? Authority, yeah I mean without authority and hierarchy there would be anarchy, right? Well, it's the definition of fascism.
This is why it's so easy for feminists to gain more supporters, because they hide behind the definition of feminism which looks okay, and most people are just so amazed by the "big words" that they don't do a background check. This is why it's so easy for feminism to excuse its bullshit spewing, because they hide behind the dictionary.
I had hoped that someone would reply and we'd start a (more or less) meaningful discussion. By downvoting me instead of saying why you disagree you're only proving me right.
Here's why I disagree with you: first of all, you list problems that you claim are the "most frequently discussed" by feminists and then you try to pass them off as trivial bullshit. These things are not even close to the most discussed topics, but they're not trivial bullshit either. "Mansplaining" sounds silly, but is a very real thing and is indicative of larger societal ideas that women are somehow helpless; I can't tell you how many times I've had a man in the lab I worked in try to explain to me a concept I wrote my thesis on. Also, it's not "compliments are bad," it's "being shouted at while I'm walking home is degrading and scary." And I think there's a lot of misinformation on both sides about the wage gap so it's not really worth discussing without extensive use of sources.The point is that modern feminism, like feminism in the past, is multi-faceted; there have always been women seeking domination over men, but the vast majority of feminists are simply seeking equality.
Unicycle, the wage gap and mansplaining and whatever Ewqua has provided as an example IS a accurate description of how feminists think of problems. Explaining anyhting to anyone with a condescending tone or patronizing manner is terrible. Why is it that it has to be gendered that men always do it?
Tarot, I'm not saying that these aren't problems being discussed by feminists; I'm saying that they are only a part of the vast issues that feminism seeks to remedy. These problems are mostly attributed to men because there is an overarching pattern of men's behaviour that many women have experienced and can connect to. Obviously women can be condescending, but the word "mansplaining" describes the larger pattern of behaviour that seems to be specific to men.
And what are the "vast issues" feminism seeks to remedy? So far I haven't met one western feminist who would actively engage in for example Middle Eastern oppression of women, female circumcision in some African countries, or anti-abortion laws. Every feminist on the internet ever seems to only mention personal problems and then somehow manage to blame them on men, or "the patriarchy".
Also, saying "being condescending is a behaviour pattern specific to men" is sexist.
Vast? I am under the impression that these are the dragons feminism needs to slay. I have seen little of other problems that aren't connected to "Society's" behavior. Is it really a problem? Does it really put all women down that much, that it makes more sense to talk about it like we're all at an AA meeting, and we have to act like we can blame one part of that circle for a problem everyone universally suffers, just to make one side happier? I doubt those problems actually contribute to a wider web of influence. "Mansplaining" is the lazy way out instead of a solution to an issue. The whole thing I dislike about feminism is that it needs to reach in and over and tell us all how to think, as if we were raised in a barn. It needs to occupy as much brainroom as possible, because if you step back and think rationally for a second, why the hell am I letting a group of people thought-police me. If you have a problem with someone's behavior, talk to THEM about it.
Do you not know who the woman quoted is? The woman who is subject of this post. She was shot in the head at 14 by the Taliban for having the audacity to want an education and to encourage other girls to get one too. If you've never met a woman who faught against those subject you obviously haven't met many.
If you try to whitewash the entire group for what steve and bob occasionally do, (to be fair, both of them are downright wankers) You try to punish everyone else for something they've never done, and everyone else would be appalled to discover they've been acting that way. It's a petty little exercise in being passive aggressive, without being aware of how controlling and manipulative it is. If this a real problem civilization has to overcome, I really do think we've hit rock bottom in progressive thought. And that's another thing i don't get about feminism. If we're supposed to open minded and encourage discussion about these things, then why is it that if someone says they disagree, they get termed racist, women hating, homophobic, and misogynist?Shouldn't we be able to have differing opinions that can fully explored and thought out to arrive at civil acceptance of both sides?
I applaud that woman then. Not many people who desire education in that enviroment survive, and all power to her that she did, and continues to make a difference.
She is really amazing. She's been an advocate since she 11 or 12, living in Pakistan. Thats when they put the death sentence on her. Do read a bit on her. I admire her greatly
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai
I know who Malala is, and indeed she is a great role model for women all around the world and today's feminists should follow her example. I specifically wrote "western feminist" so nobody could call me out on that but you'd have to read the text properly to notice that.
And I was addressing the fact that my post was to do with the woman in the picture. I also stated that if you've never met women concerned about the problems you mentioned you obviously haven't met many, but then you'd have to leave your basement to do that.
I love how you automatically assume I'm a basement dweller. Feminist logic at its finest, "everyone who disagrees with me is a 30yo white cis male living in his mom's basement!" Also, name one feminist who actively tries to solve these problems. You've got Emma Watson who's also in the post above, but to be fair all she does is look pretty and make damage control speeches.
Okay I've been watching this argument but chose not to participate until now. Celtic,you're being really immature and misrepresenting ewqua's argument. If you're going to argue,at LEAST have the maturity to not resort to the asinine "basement dweller" assumption.
How am I misrepresenting when he specifically said "So far I haven't met one western feminist who would actively engage in for example Middle Eastern oppression of women, female circumcision in some African countries, or anti-abortion laws." How has he not met women who have protested and faught against those injustices. Yes I made a friggin joke about him living in a basement, alluding to living under a rock, just as he implied I didn't read his comment, which I did. This was a simple post about equality rather demanding women are better as the feminazis try doing and yet that exactly what he tried making it out to be.
Wait, so who's the one who literally got on this post specifically to start an argument? And yet the poster who is making a totally valid argument, if a bit insulting, is the bad guy? Ewqua was the one who started with the insults, implied or not. This is just stupid. All this post said was that feminism should be about equality and the title makes reference to the girl who has had to live without it. I think we can all agree equality is something to be aspired to, for everyone. So seriously, just chill, all of you.
I implied you didn't read it well enough which, judging by the fact that you reacted as if the word "western" wasn't even in it was an assumption accurate enough to be said aloud. Your assumption, however, was based on absolutely zero facts and thus was completely baseless. Besides, even if this assumption of yours was correct, it would change nothing. Or would you brush off all my arguments if you learnt I was indeed a basement dweller? Because ignoring arguments because they come from who you assume is a "white cis male" is downright discrimination. Everybody can have an opinion no matter who they are or where they come from. Equality, right? That's what feminism fights for, right?
Also, I know women who actively fight against the problems I listed. None of them identify as feminists because they know what feminism has become – a huge monster of a movement consisting of blaming problems on others and victim complexes.
I do apologize for the insult, though why you keep harping on "white cis male" I have no friggin clue because it looks stupid, the only people who use that is Tumblrinas and Feminazis. I personally am a straight white woman, but I have had to deal with crap from men who think they have a godgiven right to my person just because they are male, just as I have dealt with women who actually agreed with that sentiment, at least for the most part. While women in first world countries don't have it nearly as bad as those from other countries, that doesn't mean they are without problems. But as I said, that had to do with equality. If people stopped seeing each other as MAN and WOMAN or gay and straight or white and black, and rather human beings a lot of those issues would resolve themselves.
As far as what feminism has become, yes, a lot of them are stupid and ridiculous and our foremothers would probably collectively smack them in their heads, but I was referring to the original essence and purpose of the feminist movement, which was about achieving equality for women.
I share those experiences, but meeting a few sexists or creeps doesn't mean all of them are like that. That's the problem of third wave feminism, one bad experience plus reading about others' bad experiences results in a group victim complex and the belief that all men are misogynist rapists or whatever. It only results in both sides suffering, with women being paranoid around men and men being misunderstood.
The thing is, 90% of feminism has moved onto tumblr and modern feminists are just feminazis, and while I agree with the original purpose of feminism, what it has become is quite shameful. That's why I made the analogy to communism, good original thought but it became a tool of oppression.
I have a survived a very violent rape, and even I don't believe its all men, or even most men, but there is a large enough percentage with that mindset that it is a social problem. When a judge says a 30 year old teacher was justified in sleeping with a 14 year old girl because she was older than her chronological years we have a problem. But the reverse is also true. Just because a woman is a woman doesn't mean she is necessarily the most fit to raise a child.
I see it a lot like I see the radicals in religion. The bad element do not stand as an example for all, but they need to be addressed and rectified one way or another or else everyone suffers and everyone in that group gets blamed for the actions of a few.
Again, I share a similar experience. These things still happen and it's unfortunate, but I wouldn't say that a high percentage of men have a rapey mindset. Rape is literally demonized in our culture, and justly so as it is a horrible crime. I haven't heard of a case in which a judge would be okay with a man sleeping with a minor, but maybe I'm just not informed enough. As to what concerns more recent cases, such as the Brock case, it's horrible that they let him off with 6 months but men are not to blame, the corrupt people who accepted bribes from the guy's father are.
I used to see it like that as well, but when issues like the X-men poster or not girly enough emojis surface, it really gives the impression that 90% of feminists are feminazis. And I'm not talking about tumblrettes, although they are mostly the loudest, I have a friend irl who actually believes the wage gap is a thing, because feminists post made up/out of context statistics so much it convinces women to believe them.
It was a case in Montana a few years ago. It happened and he got 30 days, which actually meant he walked free because the the judge granted him time served. oh, and she had been driven to suicide because of the "affair"
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/28/justice/montana-teacher-rape-sentence/
I am in agreement that the current movement has gotten completely rediculous with it's whining, especially when there are far too many places in this world were a girl is married off at 8 or 9 with no chance or ever having the luxury of an education, let alone someone to advocate for her.
Oh damn, that actually is horrible. But again I wouldn't consider this a strictly gender thing, just a stupid judge and overall flaws in the jurisdiction system.
Exactly, which is why I'm for egalitarianism, because the current feminism movement is nothing but a farce.
Look, if you believe in equality and think that people should be judged for their actions not their gender, then you're a feminist whether you want to use that label or not. You keep harping on about "modern feminism" but it's clear that many people are judging feminism by some of its most extreme proponents, which is inaccurate. Maybe some western feminists want to talk about catcalling and the wage gap and emojis because those are the issues that they have everyday experience with and that many people can relate to. Just because those are the issues being talked about doesn't mean that modern feminists don't care about promoting women's education or stopping female genital mutilation around the world. Just like with every movement, there are some extreme outliers who are often the most vocal, but that shouldn't undermine the message of the majority.
This is exactly what I'm talking about with feminists trying to persuade people to join. "Do you believe in equality? Then you're a feminist!" No. I'm not. Because even if we pretend that 90% of feminists aren't tumblr feminazis, feminism only focuses on women. I want equality for all. How about equality for the men who've been fucked up by divorce? How about equality for the men who've been abused but then were told to "man up"? Feminism focuses on such petty issues but when an equality problem arises that actually gives women the advantage, they do their best to ignore it because they're a bunch of misandrists who want power over men, not equality. Stop using the definition that was valid maybe a century ago and realize that feminism has become something completely different from what it was back then. It's 2016, not 1916.
Unicycle, the problem is that third wave intersectional campus feminism IS the most popular and outspoken creed of feminism. They go to schools/colleges to rile up students about how the world works according to them, and get them angry at people who are not part of the problem, because they would have a hard time actually finding the problem themselves. All power to feminists who ARE struggling and working towards having better standards of equality in places where it is needed most. But I can't look at some evangelist who goes to colleges to make the influx of people who matter, reflect their inaccurate, misguided, and censoring views on free speech, and want to take away the right to say whatever I want without being stigmatized without reason becuase it might make people think, and I cannot say "I support this with no qualms whatsoever". It's a bad way of thinking that this is only a problem on tumblr.
I live in America, arguably one of the best places to live socially. It doesn't matter if I'm gay, queer, straight, whatever, I can do pretty much what I want to do. it's a hell of a lot better than living in Saudi Arabia, where If I get raped I can be charged with adulterous activity, and face real jail time because the laws are fucking retarded. If you get raped here in America, you can tell people about it, you can go to the police and have them arrested and charged for their despicable crime. And because we all hate rape so much, feminazis try to blow the whole thing out of proportion. The "1 in 4" argument for sexual assault is a big load of crap, and just something to drum up fear for feminazi conscription. Because if you say "hold on, that can't be right" I'm apparently a rapist according to their convoluted leaps of logic. Whatever they say is supposed to demonize whoever goes "uh, maybe that might not be right?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Personally I don't think rape, genital mutilation, child brides and lack of education should be feminist problems, they should be humanity problems, Women aren't the only victims of rape, nor or they they ones being sold into slavery and prostitution, nor or they the only ones being refused the right for education. Yes, women have issues that need addressing, but as mentioned, there are some situations where men have a definite disadvantage, like child custody and claims of domestic abuse.
That's a good point. These things should be humanity problems because feminists sure as hell aren't doing anything about them. The most recent issues of feminism aren't even problems in real life, they're made up issues which are supposed to scare women into joining feminism. I mean let's get real, manspreading isn't even a thing. And of course, when you disagree, you're labeled a "pro-rapist" or misogynist etc.
You can tell a movement is no longer needed when it has to create the issues which it claims to fight.
Feminism does deal with issues that effect men since the movement seeks to change larger societal ideals of masculinity and femininity. Feminism is about helping male rape and domestic abuse victims come forward because feminism seeks to undermine society's views of male victims as weak. Feminism is about helping deserving fathers get custody by undermining gender roles of women as primary caregivers. I'm really sorry that you think feminism is such a dirty word, and that the movement is swarmed by misandrist demons from the depths of tumblr but feminism doesn't only focus on women. Because real feminism recognizes that there are certain areas where women have an advantage, and it seeks to level the playing field for all.
Those are some nice words but we all know what feminism is nowadays. You can present this however you want but all you have in the end are pretty but empty words and the "no true Scotsman" argument.
I don't know about you, but I have actually tried to do what I can to help. I can't afford to go to other countries but I have worked with girl and women in my area who have survived rape and domestic violence. I have help raise donation for schools in Africa and would gladly open my home to refugees if I have the money or space.
Same thing. I can't afford to go abroad but I recently donated money to breast cancer research. But these things are common sense and you don't have to identify with a movement to do them, especially when that movement mostly consists of people whose idea of help is whining on their tumblr page.
In all honesty, those kind of people are part of the reason I don't have a tumblr. I misunderstood your statement as an accusation of hypocrisy on my part, but I agree. I've met women who with rant online about "injustice" but will not put themselves in any kind of position to actually help.
Exactly, but the number of those is many times higher than the number of women who actually help. That's why feminism has become what it is now, and saying "those are not real feminists" is just pulling a no true Scotsman, because those "not real" feminists make up 90% of the movement.
Look, I respect your opinion and recognise that I likely can't change it, but I hope you come to realize that egalitarianism = feminism. It's important to call it feminism even though feminists advocate for men and women's rights because it's largely the feminine things (i.e. a male rape victim seen as weak) that are put down by society as a whole. If you want to paint all modern feminists with the same brush I can't stop you, but you're dead wrong because there are so many different branches of feminism working on a wide variety of issues.
Sure but that doesn't make the entire modern feminist movement invalid. I'm sure there were plenty of feminists advocating for some stupid shit back in the 1910s too, but that didn't mean that feminism itself was wrong or stupid. And just because these issues aren't as vital as education for women or preventing violence against women doesn't mean we shouldn't examine why the majority of female video game armor is automatically sexy and impractical and why many video game makers cater exclusively to a male audience despite the vast and growing community of female gamers.
Yeah, sexualized impractical armor in games is annoying, I'll give you that, but giving this issue priority whilst putting a more severe issue in the background is exactly what's wrong here.
Saying that one issue has priority in the feminist movement is like saying that one drop of water is at the very top of a wave in the ocean; there are so many different things going on in such a huge movement that different issues have different priorities for different people at different times. Some feminists have made catcalling and video games their priority, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the entire feminist movement is focusing on those issues and putting more severe issues on the back burner. Many feminists are crusading for issues of rape, education, etc so it's impossible to say that feminism is focusing on only one issue at any given time.
Another word for equality is called egalitarianism. Feminism is the advocacy for women's rights. Spin it however you want, it's not going to change the definition for me.
"Feminism: The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Yes it's that advocacy for women's rights, but with the goal of seeking equality with men. Anyone who puts women above men or hating men is misandrist not feminist.
My point is, the thought of equality is nice and all, but just like any other ideology/philosophy, it can be easily exploited by people who seek power. Yet there will still be people saying "but the definition says it's equal rights!" Yeah, that's the 19th century definition. But what most third wave feminists seek is power over men. I mean just look at it, the most frequently discussed "problems" by feminists on the internet are "mansplaining", "compliments are bad", and the wage gap which has been debunked a hundred times. So yeah, okay, if you want equality, call yourself an egalitarian, because what modern feminism has become is far from that.
This is why it's so easy for feminists to gain more supporters, because they hide behind the definition of feminism which looks okay, and most people are just so amazed by the "big words" that they don't do a background check. This is why it's so easy for feminism to excuse its bullshit spewing, because they hide behind the dictionary.
Also, saying "being condescending is a behaviour pattern specific to men" is sexist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai
Also, I know women who actively fight against the problems I listed. None of them identify as feminists because they know what feminism has become – a huge monster of a movement consisting of blaming problems on others and victim complexes.
The thing is, 90% of feminism has moved onto tumblr and modern feminists are just feminazis, and while I agree with the original purpose of feminism, what it has become is quite shameful. That's why I made the analogy to communism, good original thought but it became a tool of oppression.
I see it a lot like I see the radicals in religion. The bad element do not stand as an example for all, but they need to be addressed and rectified one way or another or else everyone suffers and everyone in that group gets blamed for the actions of a few.
I used to see it like that as well, but when issues like the X-men poster or not girly enough emojis surface, it really gives the impression that 90% of feminists are feminazis. And I'm not talking about tumblrettes, although they are mostly the loudest, I have a friend irl who actually believes the wage gap is a thing, because feminists post made up/out of context statistics so much it convinces women to believe them.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/28/justice/montana-teacher-rape-sentence/
I am in agreement that the current movement has gotten completely rediculous with it's whining, especially when there are far too many places in this world were a girl is married off at 8 or 9 with no chance or ever having the luxury of an education, let alone someone to advocate for her.
Exactly, which is why I'm for egalitarianism, because the current feminism movement is nothing but a farce.
You can tell a movement is no longer needed when it has to create the issues which it claims to fight.