i am pro-choice, but also feel it needs to be drilled into the heads of the mother before she goes through with it. abortion isn't the "back-up" plan for birth control. it is a serious choice. it is a big deal. right now according to the most recent figured black fetuses are being aborted more than they are being born. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
Are they? I didn't know that. I do know that in my country it's banned for a hospital to tell a pregnant woman the gender of her child, because families keep forcing women to abort female fetuses.
But, still, that's a problem with ignorance. I don't think their understanding of abortion is the main issue, I think it's probably more to do with societal values and prejudice—at least, from what I know. I think people do recognize the weight of a decision like having an abortion, especially considering the murderous rage they receive from pro-lifers.
That totaly not a problem, we are way too much on earth, plus i feel like annoyingnerd is right if someone make this choice wich is really hard to do it means that they really thought about this , it's not something you do for fun..
1
deleted
· 7 years ago
sadly a lot of people are victims of "out of sight, out of mind" it never sinks in that it is a child, that could have a future. i think avoiding the pregnancy is where the focus should be, not stopping it. my wife and i use pill AND condom. one because she is nervous, and two neither of us wants kids right now. either should be enough for most people.
the overpopulation issue is a lot to do with culture. in a time you'd have many kids because most wouldn't survive. we got better with keeping the kids from dying. some people still have that culture of many kids. another is people abusing government assistance so they have many kids. another is some cultures ban birth control, and further some countries have nothing to entertain themselves, but have sex and they no access to birth control.
providing free birth control around the world would be greatly beneficial. though the feeling of condom is the problem for many places too. that was why bill gates funded a program for better condom
There is no justification for pro life except "the bible says it's bad" and "I think it's bad, so therefore you can't have one"
1
deleted
· 7 years ago
or the moral concept that it is a life that could be as valuable as your own. i am pro-choice, but i understand pro-life. i hate to think of people killing children just because they are sick of them. so i would hate to think of people killing fetuses, just because they were irresponsible. on the other side i think abortion should be legal. many cases of death of the mother could have been avoided from a well times abortion. we shouldn't punish people for saving their life, when the other choice would be both dying.
A twelve week fetus is not a person, it's merely a shrimp. Pro-Choice is NOT "lets murder babies" - it's what it says: women must have the right to choose, not only because "it's her body", but because it's her next 18-20 fucking years, iow: her LIFE. So much for "pro life" which, as someone said before, suddenly seems to stops making sense when a baby is born. Then its up to the mother/parents or to the entire society. You could never do that? Then fucking don't. Will sloppy people make sloppy decisions? Most definitely. But they do it to themselves, not to you, not to some god. A truly free society is defined by accepting abuse of the system to give as much freedom as possible for the individual. It makes you wonder, how so many people who insist in as much freedom as possible see this so different when it comes to this very subject.
If you're against abortion and/or think life begins at conception, that's fine. But you can't force others to do what you think is right for their life. Yes, there are some irresponsible morons who will use abortion as birth control but they get to make that choice, not you. What about women who are pregnant by rapists? What about children who are molested and impregnated? What about the thousand of medical reasons? What if you don't want to be pregnant because it's dangerous and risky to the human body, regardless of how healthy you are? You may not agree but it doesn't matter; IT'S NOT YOUR BODY.
Ok, I think this is the best response I have ever seen. Also to everyone saying how terrible abortion is, let me give you 2 options. A) a baby is born and is undernourished, and doesn't have the support/education to grow. This child will suffer throughout his/her life. B) a child is conceived and the parents (both mom and dad) decide that they do not currently have the funds to support a child and so they have an abortion before the fetus has developed nerves.
Option B reduces suffering and is (in my opinion) a better choice. As someone who has lost family members, watching them suffer is much worse than an early death.
Sorry for the long comment, just wanted to say my opinion
These people aren't pro-life, they are pro-birth. The babies can then have the shittiest lives, children may die of starvation, and they won't blink an eye. That's what happens when your morals and ethics are taken from books instead of consciously built from your own thinking.
I think everyone has the right to make their own choices, but there is a valid ethical reason behind being against abortion. You don't have to share it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong or ignorant. Their ethics come from traditions and culture not books.
Their ethics come from years of indoctrination and still not consciously built from their own thinking. If you disagree with abortion then don't you ever do that, no matter the circumstance. You are fucked up if you think you should deny someone their rights to make a choice, especially one that doesn't concern you AT ALL. The pro-choice are not justifying murder and high-risk sexual act, we just want everyone to have a choice regarding THEIR VERY OWN BODY and also to make sure that no child would be born and grow up in misery. I'm a different guest btw.
Why is an animal's life more important than a human's? So what if there's 7 billion people on the planet? Killing unborn babies should never be funded by tax payers. Your mistake, your wallet should pay for it.
But you're STILL KILLING A FUCKING HUMAN. Let that sink in for a second. Abortion is STILL LITERALLY MURDERING A PERSON! And think about this; pro-choicers talk about abortion being 'the mother's choice'. Well guess what: that choice already WAS MADE! AT CONCEPTION! (Revolutionary concept: if you don't want kids, don't bang). For the simple reason that abortion is fundamentally murder of an innocent, I can never, and will never, condone it.
It isn't murder of a human. Most of the time, the decision will be made early on and the abortion will take place before the third trimester, before the fetus even develops a nervous system. So it has no sentience. All it does is regulate nutrients and grow—basically what a plant does.
And as for your other argument. PEOPLE WHO HAVE ABORTIONS DO IT BECAUSE THEY DID NOT MAKE THE CHOICE TO HAVE CHILDREN. Maybe their birth control measures were faulty, or they forgot to use protection, but either way they were having sex without the intention of giving birth. Plus, what about teenagers? They never choose to be pregnant. And that's not even going into rape victims.
If you made the choice to climb a tree and you fell out and broke your leg, you would be treated. If you drove drunk and had a car crash, you would be treated. Why should women who got pregnant unintentionally be any different?
So you're saying that because the fetus is underdeveloped, it isn't human? In the example in the post, when someone breaks an eagle egg, it's still considered 'killing an endangered eagle', correct? What I'm trying to ask is, what makes a human any less human for being less developed?
So sperm is also already human and you shouldn't kill it? Hey I mean, it contains at least half of the genetic material of the child. Still they're only a bunch of cells, like a fetus without a nervous system. That'd make masturbating quite illegal
The real problem is the post is a logical fallacy. They are different situations in a practical sense and in an ethical sense. This is a classic tactic to change the focus of the argument.
Really the question is, "is killing a fetus murder"? It's an ethical grey area. As abortion is legal, you have to square it with yourself.
"So you're saying that because the fetus is underdeveloped, it isn't human?" - Its human tissue, like snot, or like body fat. It's not a human being. It has less sensory capacity or theory of mind than most of what you'd put on a frutti di mare pizza.
Are you saying that human tissue should be protected no matter what, even when it isn't sentient? Doesn't it cause amputations to be illegal? And what about the women who miscarriaged, doesn't it make them 'natural' murderers?
The reason they protect eagle eggs is so that the fetus can develop into a sentient being so the species doesn't die out. Completely different matter.
And I'm saying that because the fetus has no sentience, it is more akin to a plant than to a baby, so it isn't murder of a baby.
K so, the general consensus seems to be that fetuses aren't fully human, thus, killing them is not morally (or legally) wrong, correct? Well. Time to learn some shit.
Is killing an adult (legally) any different from killing a baby? Spoiler alert: the answer is 'no'. It's murder either way. So: What is the difference between an adult and a baby? There are only two differences: size and level of development. Now: what's the difference between a baby and a fetus? Size, and level of development. If those two factors don't legally make a difference between an adult and a baby, why should they make a legal difference between killing a baby and a fetus?
You can keep telling yourselves that human fetuses aren't human; I'll stick with science and logic.
There's one more important difference between a baby and a fetus: a baby is a sentient being, while a fetus is a non-sentient organism performing basic functions. Logic.
What humanity exactly? Your assumption that a fetus (and we're talking less max. 12 weeks) is just less developed and smaller than a baby is wrong. By no means could a fetus live outside a womb. It's part of a human body, in a strict one way relation. A bit like the appendix. Every part of the human digestive system has nerve cells (neurons) like the brain has. And that appendix has probably as many of those neurons as the fetus' pre-version of a brain. So does that appendix have humanity? Then what about a brain tumor?
.
A baby is a person, a fetus is not. Deal with it.
For fuck's sake. Let's do this again.
A baby is not "less sentient" than an adult. It is less developed, less intelligent, than an adult, but just as sentient. Sentience is "the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively." A fetus cannot do this, which means that a fetus is. not. human. It isn't even an animal, as animals are also sentient organisms.
Thank you, @funsubstanceuser.
Well maybe your definition of 'human' is wrong. Ever thought about that? Maybe 'human' is defined as 'conception-to-fetus-to-baby-to-adult-to-death', the entire cycle. Worth some thought.
All right, Dave, what's your definition of human, then? Because mine requires that the organism in question should at the very least have a brain, if not a basic human one. And whatever your answer, know that your definition may be wrong, too.
It's disgusting how people justify murder...there is no way to describe it other than taking a life. How about people stop being careless about sex and own up to being responsible. It's so selfish and corrupt. People have lost thier character and common sense and this world will pay a high price for it.
But, still, that's a problem with ignorance. I don't think their understanding of abortion is the main issue, I think it's probably more to do with societal values and prejudice—at least, from what I know. I think people do recognize the weight of a decision like having an abortion, especially considering the murderous rage they receive from pro-lifers.
the overpopulation issue is a lot to do with culture. in a time you'd have many kids because most wouldn't survive. we got better with keeping the kids from dying. some people still have that culture of many kids. another is people abusing government assistance so they have many kids. another is some cultures ban birth control, and further some countries have nothing to entertain themselves, but have sex and they no access to birth control.
providing free birth control around the world would be greatly beneficial. though the feeling of condom is the problem for many places too. that was why bill gates funded a program for better condom
Option B reduces suffering and is (in my opinion) a better choice. As someone who has lost family members, watching them suffer is much worse than an early death.
Sorry for the long comment, just wanted to say my opinion
And as for your other argument. PEOPLE WHO HAVE ABORTIONS DO IT BECAUSE THEY DID NOT MAKE THE CHOICE TO HAVE CHILDREN. Maybe their birth control measures were faulty, or they forgot to use protection, but either way they were having sex without the intention of giving birth. Plus, what about teenagers? They never choose to be pregnant. And that's not even going into rape victims.
If you made the choice to climb a tree and you fell out and broke your leg, you would be treated. If you drove drunk and had a car crash, you would be treated. Why should women who got pregnant unintentionally be any different?
Really the question is, "is killing a fetus murder"? It's an ethical grey area. As abortion is legal, you have to square it with yourself.
And I'm saying that because the fetus has no sentience, it is more akin to a plant than to a baby, so it isn't murder of a baby.
Is killing an adult (legally) any different from killing a baby? Spoiler alert: the answer is 'no'. It's murder either way. So: What is the difference between an adult and a baby? There are only two differences: size and level of development. Now: what's the difference between a baby and a fetus? Size, and level of development. If those two factors don't legally make a difference between an adult and a baby, why should they make a legal difference between killing a baby and a fetus?
You can keep telling yourselves that human fetuses aren't human; I'll stick with science and logic.
.
A baby is a person, a fetus is not. Deal with it.
A baby is not "less sentient" than an adult. It is less developed, less intelligent, than an adult, but just as sentient. Sentience is "the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively." A fetus cannot do this, which means that a fetus is. not. human. It isn't even an animal, as animals are also sentient organisms.
Thank you, @funsubstanceuser.
Not murder, not a sentient human baby.