Open minded, independently thinking people certainly could look things up and verify. But its significantly easier, and more likely, that someone will assume some validity and allow a message like that to help form their opinions.
well, looking things up (Wikipedia) it says that Wikipedia has the lowest ratio in Gender Gap, but it *does have a gap*, so there is no equality, is there?
Women have had the right since 1920. In 2012 53% of votes were women and in 2016 56% of voters were women. WOMEN are voting for MEN and then complain that there is a man in office.
WOMEN can steal a man's sperm and sue him for child support. A WOMAN can rape a man and sue him for child support. WOMEN can declare a man the father and then that man is legally required to prove the child isn't his within 30 days. Women actually HAVE reproductive rights. Men are always expected to be the perpetrator of domestic abuse even though 40-50% of all victims are male AND lesbian couples have the highest level of domestic abuse while gay men have the lowest. Men are 76% more likely to be homeless. Men are 400% more likely to be a victim of suicide. Women are one-eleventh as likely to die in the workplace as men. Circumcision is illegal for women at birth but not for men.
And that's barely the tip of the iceberg.
@kurama_otsutski 1) males choose more 'gory' methods of suicide like a GSW unlike women who are more likely to take pills which result in more failed attempts. 2) Male circumcision can help keep the penis clean and help with not having smegma. 3) Men can terminate their parental rights so they do not have to pay child support. 4) Women are less likely to die in the workplace because of the current market for them doing less dangerous jobs such as nursing and teaching. 5) Males expecting to be the perpetrator of abuse? What is this the 50's? No one actually thinks that anymore and if they do they are living under a rock. 6) There are more homeless men and the correlation is that they are more likely homeless due to drug/mental illness. Your 'iceburg' just sunk.
Re: stealing sperm, rape, child support:
As we’ve discussed before, the instances of rape and sperm theft for the sake of child support were anecdotal, and even though they were horribly screwed up, shouldn’t be mistaken for population-wide trends.
Also as we’ve discussed before, the trend to award women custody of children and require men to pay child support comes from stereotypes that cast women as nurturers and men as providers, which is limiting for everyone involved. Similarly, the notion that men are abusers and women are abused comes from stereotypes about violent men and submissive women, which leaves male victims unsupported and female perpetrators unsuspected.
Re: domestic abuse:
Across the board more women are victims of domestic abuse than men, though you’re right, LGBT women appear to be more likely to be victims than heterosexual ones. Between bisexual, straight, and gay men, bisexual men are the most likely to suffer domestic abuse, though gay men are slightly less likely than straight ones, so that seems to be a bit of a mixed bag. Looks like bisexual people in general are the most at risk, rather than just men or women. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Intimate-Partner-Violence-and-Sexual-Abuse-among-LGBT-People.pdf
Re: having reproductive rights
Defining reproductive rights as “the rights of individuals to decide whether to reproduce and have reproductive health,” I would argue that men do have reproductive rights, and there are few, if any, people who want to restrict them. There are no movements to limit access to prostate exams, prostate cancer screenings, testicular cancer screenings, erectile dysfunction screenings, vasectomies, Viagra, or condoms, unless you count attempts to close planned parenthood https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services/mens-health-services. The only area of restriction that I can think of is if a woman’s partner does not want her to get an abortion that she wants to have, since the Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v. Danforth placed a woman’s bodily autonomy/right to privacy over a father’s parental rights. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1975/74-1151
Re: homelessness
Single adult homeless population 51% men 1%7 women - http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/Whois.pdf
Re: suicide
2016 stats suggest that men are actually only 3.5 times more likely to die from suicide than women. (I believe the 4 times more likely comes from stats on white males, specifically). However, it’s important to note that 3 times as many women attempt suicide compared to men. https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
Re: workplace deaths
While it’s true that more men than women work in dangerous jobs and therefore more men than women die on the job (93% of fatalities are male- pg 8: https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0014.pdf), when controlling for hours worked and the type of jobs worked, women are slightly more likely than men to be injured on the job, at least according to one study on heavy manufacturing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3658145/
Re: circumcision
The reason male circumcision is not illegal is that some doctors/researchers believe there are health benefits that justify leaving it up to the parents (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756), whereas female circumcision doesn’t provide any health benefits as far as anyone knows. But yeah, there is something uncomfortable about the lack of choice for the infant, and that the bodily autonomy is handed wholly over to the parents.
So far you've agreed with all my points or dismissed them without evidence so try again.
@sm19 Bring evidence not bullshit. Everything in that is so bullshit that it would take too long to debunk.
1.) The method does not matter. The outcome does.
2.) Same can be said for female genitalia.
3.) So either pay money or never see your child again. That's called blackmail. Also cannot happen in most states unless the child is being adopted and does not necessarily mean the father must stop paying child support.
4.) Exactly. Thanks for extending my point.
5.) What world are you living with? There are very few male abuse shelter and those that do exist do not have enough funds to exist for very long.
6.) Once again, thanks for extending my point. Although you forgot to mention that there are organization dedicated to helping homeless women or stopping such things from happening. While males or more likely to do drugs, however the numbers are still disproportionate.
Also drug abuse is a result of homelessness not a cause in most cases so that entire point is shit. Now I have to go make a picture of Trump from other pictures of trump.
Clearly the method effects the outcome so it does matter.
Actually, the same can't be said for female genitalia. There are no health benefits of female circumcision
If a mother failed to support her child the child would be taken away too. That's not a male thing that's a parent thing.
I don't know what 'extending my point' means but I think @sm19 had a very valid explanation
I do not live in the states so I don't know how far either of those claims are true although it would help if you perhaps "brought evedince not bullshit"
I'm sure either way you're not going to care about any of this because when @redrosses gave you evidence and a clear breakdown of the issues you ignored it. Some People do not want their minds changed. I guess growing as a person is bad for their health.
I provided no points that needed evidence. This entire post seems to just be a shit storm of "blah, blah women are better than men blah blah give me more rights."
This has gone on way to long. I remember when funsubstance used to be about fun, and not, "who can win a political argument on the internet every single day"
@kurama_otsutsuki I am perusing an honours degree in psychology which means I have to write and defend a thesis in front of a board of people. I've had to study and research all of this for the past four years so I can make a convincing and well researched paper. All this is 'common knowledge' for me and people in my field. If you want my evidence/sources try 'Essentials of Abnormal Psychology in a changing world third canadian edition' which has the DSM-V update (that's what they use to diagnose people with various disorders). You can find everything I said and more in there.
@kuruma_otsutsuki I thought you respected science. I though our discussion about atheism and faith was civil yet provocative and fascinating. Your comments here have made me lose a lot of respect for you as a debater. Shame, really. I was looking forward to more conversations with you.
I do respect science - however this isn't science. It's a social issue which we can view through statistics and said statistics show that men are less privileged then women and yet women still are complaining about being oppressed. Grow up.
@kuruma_otsutski please tell me some ways you have personally been oppressed by women. I'm genuinely curious, and no, I'm not playing "I'm more oppressed than you." This is an honest question.
Personally? I have been lucky enough to escape such things but just because I have not experienced such a thing doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Although I could push the idea of men never, ever being allowed to hit a female as oppression but that's a bit of a stretch.
Tell me have you ever starved to death? If not then why do you feel sorry for those that do? Should you not try to stop such a thing from happening? What if you knew that it was extremely likely that if you didn't try to stop it now that you would starve to death with the chances being around 40% per year?
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· 7 years ago
Sorry to tell you guys but men do have it worse in first world countries
@kuruma_otsutsuki first off, good job recognizing that being told you can't oppress another group (hitting women) isn't oppression. (<--not sarcasm. Many people in power never get to this point. Let me repeat that: BEING TOLD YOU CANT OPPRESS SOMEONE ISNT OPPRESSION) Secondly, please stop with the whole "men have it worse than women" thing. I could sit here and list off all the ways I've been oppressed, but you wouldn't like that, would you? I told you I wasn't going to play the game of "who's more oppressed." And you know what? I don't like that game anyways. That game gets in the way of progress, and if there's one thing I believe it's that we should always move forward. Moreover, let me let you in on a secret:
No one doubts that there are difficulties that women have (periods, childbirth, men acting poorly towards them) and difficulties that men have (getting an erection every time they're aroused, pressure to perform during sex, women acting poorly towards them). But to say "men have it worse" is to devalue women's issues. Do you want to know the truth, kuruma? Do you want to know the actual truth of the little societies on this little blue marble? Those statements have no value. Some women live terrible lives, some live wonderfully, and some men live terrible live and some live wonderfully. Am I going to say that you lead a better life than I do because you have a Y chromosome (I assume)? I don't know you. For all I know, you're the unluckiest bastard in America. Do you get me? Do you see what I'm saying?
@kuruma_otsutsuki
I have been slapped and kicked, in public by a an ex gf because she thought I was cheating on her.
Not only was I not cheating on her, and she could find no proof to support it, but she slapped and even kicked repeatedly. Not one person told her to stop, no one jumped in to help, and a couple of people even laughed, and I just had to stand there and take knowing that if I so much as raised my hand to defend myself, those people would be jumping in playing the hero card.
Now reverse the roles, let's say I believed she cheated on me, and provided no evidence and then just started slapping the shit out of her, how many seconds before someone jumps in? Probably 10 at most, and I'd probably get charged with assault, or one of the bystanders would beat the shit out of me...
Tell me how that's fair...
deleted
· 7 years ago
To say woman have it worse is to devalue men's issues
YES. THAT'S MY FUCKING POINT. THIS ISN'T SOME FEMINAZI GIMMICK. My entire THESIS (if you read it at all) was to stop playing "who's more oppressed." Understood?
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· 7 years ago
The point of the post is to stop 1st world feminazis from complaining about shit that means fuck all when the real feminists should be trying to help the woman who need real help, especially those women in 3rd world countries. Feminists claim to be equality between the sexes but they are only for them selves which is why they don't bother trying to help men with their problems.
Okay, I was talking about my comment??? But since you brought it up, this is a feminist post. The point is that if women band together ("90% of women"), then they can create real change, regardless of their country's economic development.
You could actually go and look it up yourself, couldn't you
WOMEN can steal a man's sperm and sue him for child support. A WOMAN can rape a man and sue him for child support. WOMEN can declare a man the father and then that man is legally required to prove the child isn't his within 30 days. Women actually HAVE reproductive rights. Men are always expected to be the perpetrator of domestic abuse even though 40-50% of all victims are male AND lesbian couples have the highest level of domestic abuse while gay men have the lowest. Men are 76% more likely to be homeless. Men are 400% more likely to be a victim of suicide. Women are one-eleventh as likely to die in the workplace as men. Circumcision is illegal for women at birth but not for men.
And that's barely the tip of the iceberg.
Re: women in politics
I suppose that’s fair, since 3 million more people voted for the first female president than for the 45th male one, though it’s difficult to vote for a female presidential candidate when there isn’t one (aside from Hillary there was only Shirley Chisholm in 1972). And no, men elected this male president, not women (54% for Hillary). http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
The issue of women in Congress and state governments is more nuanced than just women voting only for men, though obviously some do. See more here http://www.npr.org/2016/06/11/481424890/even-with-a-female-presumptive-nominee-women-are-underrepresented-in-politics
As we’ve discussed before, the instances of rape and sperm theft for the sake of child support were anecdotal, and even though they were horribly screwed up, shouldn’t be mistaken for population-wide trends.
Also as we’ve discussed before, the trend to award women custody of children and require men to pay child support comes from stereotypes that cast women as nurturers and men as providers, which is limiting for everyone involved. Similarly, the notion that men are abusers and women are abused comes from stereotypes about violent men and submissive women, which leaves male victims unsupported and female perpetrators unsuspected.
Across the board more women are victims of domestic abuse than men, though you’re right, LGBT women appear to be more likely to be victims than heterosexual ones. Between bisexual, straight, and gay men, bisexual men are the most likely to suffer domestic abuse, though gay men are slightly less likely than straight ones, so that seems to be a bit of a mixed bag. Looks like bisexual people in general are the most at risk, rather than just men or women. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Intimate-Partner-Violence-and-Sexual-Abuse-among-LGBT-People.pdf
Defining reproductive rights as “the rights of individuals to decide whether to reproduce and have reproductive health,” I would argue that men do have reproductive rights, and there are few, if any, people who want to restrict them. There are no movements to limit access to prostate exams, prostate cancer screenings, testicular cancer screenings, erectile dysfunction screenings, vasectomies, Viagra, or condoms, unless you count attempts to close planned parenthood https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services/mens-health-services. The only area of restriction that I can think of is if a woman’s partner does not want her to get an abortion that she wants to have, since the Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v. Danforth placed a woman’s bodily autonomy/right to privacy over a father’s parental rights. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1975/74-1151
Single adult homeless population 51% men 1%7 women - http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/Whois.pdf
Re: suicide
2016 stats suggest that men are actually only 3.5 times more likely to die from suicide than women. (I believe the 4 times more likely comes from stats on white males, specifically). However, it’s important to note that 3 times as many women attempt suicide compared to men. https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/
While it’s true that more men than women work in dangerous jobs and therefore more men than women die on the job (93% of fatalities are male- pg 8: https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0014.pdf), when controlling for hours worked and the type of jobs worked, women are slightly more likely than men to be injured on the job, at least according to one study on heavy manufacturing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3658145/
Re: circumcision
The reason male circumcision is not illegal is that some doctors/researchers believe there are health benefits that justify leaving it up to the parents (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756), whereas female circumcision doesn’t provide any health benefits as far as anyone knows. But yeah, there is something uncomfortable about the lack of choice for the infant, and that the bodily autonomy is handed wholly over to the parents.
@sm19 Bring evidence not bullshit. Everything in that is so bullshit that it would take too long to debunk.
1.) The method does not matter. The outcome does.
2.) Same can be said for female genitalia.
3.) So either pay money or never see your child again. That's called blackmail. Also cannot happen in most states unless the child is being adopted and does not necessarily mean the father must stop paying child support.
4.) Exactly. Thanks for extending my point.
5.) What world are you living with? There are very few male abuse shelter and those that do exist do not have enough funds to exist for very long.
6.) Once again, thanks for extending my point. Although you forgot to mention that there are organization dedicated to helping homeless women or stopping such things from happening. While males or more likely to do drugs, however the numbers are still disproportionate.
Actually, the same can't be said for female genitalia. There are no health benefits of female circumcision
If a mother failed to support her child the child would be taken away too. That's not a male thing that's a parent thing.
I don't know what 'extending my point' means but I think @sm19 had a very valid explanation
I do not live in the states so I don't know how far either of those claims are true although it would help if you perhaps "brought evedince not bullshit"
I'm sure either way you're not going to care about any of this because when @redrosses gave you evidence and a clear breakdown of the issues you ignored it. Some People do not want their minds changed. I guess growing as a person is bad for their health.
Tell me have you ever starved to death? If not then why do you feel sorry for those that do? Should you not try to stop such a thing from happening? What if you knew that it was extremely likely that if you didn't try to stop it now that you would starve to death with the chances being around 40% per year?
I have been slapped and kicked, in public by a an ex gf because she thought I was cheating on her.
Not only was I not cheating on her, and she could find no proof to support it, but she slapped and even kicked repeatedly. Not one person told her to stop, no one jumped in to help, and a couple of people even laughed, and I just had to stand there and take knowing that if I so much as raised my hand to defend myself, those people would be jumping in playing the hero card.
Now reverse the roles, let's say I believed she cheated on me, and provided no evidence and then just started slapping the shit out of her, how many seconds before someone jumps in? Probably 10 at most, and I'd probably get charged with assault, or one of the bystanders would beat the shit out of me...
Tell me how that's fair...