Well hell. Personally? I think that 99.99% of the time that decision probably shouldn’t be made so young. But.... it’s kinda a mess isn’t it? Parents can already select the gender of their child before they are born. Technology has made that possible. A good friend just opted for a lovely baby girl with a low chance of genetic defects and a price tag higher than many pay for college.
So.... it takes on an odd ethical light does it not? A parent can choose what sex you are before you are born, a minor can’t make choices for themselves but a parent can.... and here we are saying a parent can’t choose your gender after you are born.
Here’s where it gets really strange. Why not? Because this is a decision that is irreversible and will impact the rest of your life? Like... circumcision or not? Like enrolling you in early learning or sports or setting up a trust or college fund for you? Like the diet they choose to feed you? Like the morals and skills they teach you?
I mean.... there are already a thousand and one decisions parents make for us before we can choose for ourselves, that shape our lives and the trajectory of our lives.
SHOULD YOU let your kid drink? I dunnoh. But it is legal in many states with a parent present because... well... it’s recognized parents have a certain amount of discretion with kids. There’s also no law about letting kids drive: you can’t let them drive on public roads where they may be a danger to others, but on your property you can let them drive all you want.
Now... should people get a tattoo at a young age? Technically when are you mature enough to make a decision that will likely be with you the rest of your life? But... laws vary by state and most allow a minor to get a tattoo with parental consent.
So should a person give a young child hormone therapy? Probably not in most cases. Like the pony or piano lessons or dance... there are good odds that many kids will change their minds. But... some won’t. And in cases where we have some good indication the latter is more the case than the former.... it could well be prudent to offer a child such therapy.
Technology does that. I mean... how young is too young for the internet or social media where a child might do or say or see things that could follow them for life and lead to regrets? Technology.
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· 5 years ago
Blair White should marry Matt Walsh so they can have 100% binary kids they can educate like in the 1950s. She's the same oblivious heinous bitch as Matt, faking and over-generalizing, straw-men building and picking the lowest hanging fruit by hand-picking troll postings from other transphobe anti-feminists posing posing as feminists and trans persons. Classic 21st century social media moves. Twitter is fucking cancer.
Blair white is a feminist and is transgender though...
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· 5 years ago
That would be his problem, wouldn't it? There's adoption? I wouldn't even say she of all people should know better what happens and what doesn't, but actually every media personality contributing to the discussion should know and respect some basic facts. As to her calling herself a feminist; if Kid Rock called himself a feminist, would that make him one?
Your comment had absolutely no connection. What is his problem? Who is the his you’re referring to? When was adoption brought up? As for her knowing better what happens, id say a trans person has pretty good insight. And as for the feminist thing, I mean you’re correct but by saying that you’re just deflecting and saying that anyone anywhere can lie about what they are and thus we shouldn’t trust anyone
To be fair- the experience of any one member of a group is individual. Lil Wayne (some might eye roll- but quite eloquently and wisely said) when asked about racism against Blacks, (in paraphrase) that he had never experienced it in his life. He went on to say that the fact HE never experienced it didn’t mean it doesn’t happen. That he has to believe that of all the black people who say they have experienced it; they can’t all be lying or wrong.
So SHE knows what HER life as a trans woman is like. But there are historical records of slaves saying slavery wasn’t bad, Jews and Eastern Europeans saying the Nazis weren’t so bad. Experiences vary between individuals as do perceptions. Ask a vet how well the military treat(s/ed) them. Answers across the board even in an organization built on standardization and routine.
As for the “feminist” and “everyone lying” thing- I believe there is false dichotomy there. The intent I believe reads as: “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, calling it a horse won’t make it a horse.” So it’s not that we shouldn’t trust anyone - it’s that if Weinstein or Epstein had called themselves “me too” advocates... their deeds and actions wouldn’t match- and which would you be inclined to believe, what they say or what they do?
I personally see both sides. I DO AGREE ot is a lifetine decision that I hope kids get counseling and thereapy before they do it and so donthebparents, just to make sure it is appropriate for them. A extreme liberal person my think is to try to change their minds and that saying "it's a face" is transphobic. But it it is a posibility, not always of course but it is.
Withvthat said. If it really is what they want. They look better in the long term if they start before puberty probably making the : appearance" aspect better and easier
Starting hormone therapy early has some distinct advantages. Of done before puberty one can generally avoid certain gender characteristics of the biological sex that onset in development. It also has psychological advantages. The child gets to grow up as their chosen gender, treated as such by any not aware of their biological sex or any who are accepting of transgender identity. The child doesn’t suffer through years or decades of emotional distress of feeling like they aren’t “right” in their body. They can experience most of their life the way they want to as opposed to being one gender to the world and another in their mind before finally being able to make the two match later in life after their primary development years are behind them. They get an entirely different set of memories and don’t have to live 2 lives- the life before the change and after.
Financially- if the transition is covered by insurance- they can be on their parents insurance and or not have the stresses of work and self reliance on top of treatments, adjustments, and payments. A child who turns 18 before being able to transition- they may not be able to be covered by a parents insurance and the odds of most young people having good enough insurance to cover the high costs of transitioning are relatively low. That could further delay their ability to transition until they are in their mid 20’s or even 30’s- it means that they have even more of an existing identity trapped between accepted sexes and all the complications of that, and it means at a young age they may resort to financially foolish or desperate measures to be able to afford to transition- at a time when many people are broke enough as is and trying to go to school or save for a home or just get by.
So there are benefits to transitioning at a younger age. The main risk is that a child might change their mind. That perhaps some children who aren’t truly transgender but just impulsive or curious etc. might decide they want to change gender. Kids don’t understand things like “forever.” If you haven’t even lived 20 years then what you know as a long time- your whole life- is only about a third of a relatively short life. Most teens think 30 is so long away and such.
But... I dunnoh. Shit happens. Kids blame parents for most things anyway. Hugged too much, not enough. Too strict, too free. Didn’t push hard enough in school, pushed too hard. Could have been an artist, and astronaut the president, emotionally well adjusted, rich, whatever... if mom(s)and or dad(s) had just done XYZ.
But... million dollar question here: Is being trans, or being a different gender... a disability? Because well... an adult Man could literally wake up one day with doubts he’d never really realized he had. Do some self discovery... and find out he wants to be a woman or embrace some aspect of that right? You’ll hear many people say “I wish I was born a man/woman...” instead of what they were.
So.... what’s the difference? If you’re born biologically female, and grow up, and deep down somewhere wish you were born a man.... what makes you different than a person who grows up as a woman, but was born biologically a man, and now wishes they had grown us as a man?
2 women- both wishing they had grown up as men. Only difference... one was born a man, became a woman, now wishes they were a man. It’s not like a person can’t transition. Most people I know who lament not being another gender with any degree of seriousness, but not to the extent they are trans- just figure life isn’t so bad as what they are. Not bad enough to feel a want or need to transition or change identities anyway.
If they had been given a choice they would have chosen a different gender- but the one they got isn’t so bad. Kinda like ordering a Taco at the drive through and getting home to find you got a burrito. Unless you REALLY wanted that taco- you’re probably just gonna shrug and say the burrito is fine. It’s not worth the hassle to you to change it now.
So the pendulum swings both ways. What would it change about my life to find out today I had been born another gender? Ask yourself that. If you’re happy with your gender BEFORE you found that out, why would you be so unhappy now? If you were unhappy with your gender before you found out- were you unhappy... or were you “trans?” Did you feel your gender was wrong and identify as something your body or paperwork says you aren’t? Were you so unhappy with your gender that you’d consider transitioning or living “cross gender” in outwards manners?
So.... basically what we have are people who KNOW what they feel their gender should be and people who just have some preference one way or another but will take what they get. The observations don’t swing strongly against the idea unless we decided to label being transgender or being a man or woman as a disability.
One can detransition. It isn’t “perfect” and has side effects often. WTM transitions are more easily physically accomplished at any age where MTF usually gets better physical results at earlier ages. Someone transitioning back from FTM May have issues with “masculinization” like a deeper voice, more body hair, male pattern baldness, etc. transitioning from MTF has challenges as well- and both can have issues of mood, body composition, and sterility.
The CRUCIAL component in gauging any transition let alone for younger people is wether the person simply thinks it would be “cool,” wants to emulate a person they are fond of and lump gender into the things they like about that person as opposed to traits of personality; wether they just think “the other ones have it easier or better” or perhaps they’ve had a trauma.
It’s more common in women- especially as a reaction to extreme gender discrimination or some assault where they felt weak and targeted- women after such events may try to make themselves look less attractive, or to become stronger, to bulk up and be more physically capable and threatening. In some rare cases women transition to men because of such abuses. Because they hate being a woman and the vulnerability that they see with that in our society or they hate their body and blame it for their trauma.
With men- such behaviors are less common (save for bulking up in response to feeling weak,) but some men may not feel they are a woman but want to become a woman because a man or men I general have treated them badly or traumatized them, while women or a woman helped them, impacted them, made them feel safe or loved. In VERY rare and extreme cases a man might simply fetishize women to such a degree he would want to be a woman. (That last one would be VERY VERY rare in children and is already a statistical outlier in adults.)
So if we can rule out that a child might be seeking to transition not out of a genuine identification as a certain gender but as a reaction to their perceptions of society or their experiences making them averse to their own gender- then that’s a crucial component.
I don’t think with things like gender transitioning we can apply blanket statements. It’s a very individual issue. The only time we have the right to tell a parent what to do with a child is when that action endangers the public, or is abusive or endangering to the child. You can feed your child junk until they are 2x the weight of their peers right up until they are 18. Leaving them with emotional and physical baggage and battles and lasting effects that might follow them through life. Why can you do that but changing their gender is so taboo?
Those who know a child best- and hopefully know them well, and have their best interests at heart should be the ones to decide what is best for the child. It shouldn’t be a quick decision or one made in politics or for a personal statement by the parents. It shouldn’t be done because YOU wanted a little boy/girl but got something else. But... can we say there is no place for it?
As a child I had certain behaviors my father called a “phase.” He insisted that someday I’d feel silly and I may as well give them up then and there. I never did. Listening to him would have made my life very different. In many ways better. But I was and am who I am. Living the way he wanted would have likely made things “easier” but I wouldn’t have been able to live as me. As a child I knew deep in my heart what I wanted in this case. My father COULD have been right but I knew. I just knew. So we can’t say that kids are completely unable to know themselves. It all depends on the kid and circumstances.
Well,I can read all of that right now, but in regards what you said about having problems. I'm sure it does! You are trying to change a body's endocrine system basically. That's why I was specific about making the part about appearance better. Because im sure helpa but is not the only thing to consider
It’s certainly not the only thing. Biology is complex as is mental health. We’ve made strides at understanding both better- and I am sure (or hopeful at least) that we will continue to advance and improve the science of hormone therapy- not just for the transgender but for all the people it can help. But our understanding of and our application of use of artificial hormones has improved a great deal from its infancy. Perhaps someday we might even be able to apply gene therapy to lessen or remove the need for artificial hormones and make transitioning and other hormone alterations more successful and reduce complications.
Socially, I hope we continue to make progress to accept the transgender or those who fall outside more traditional binary ideas or roles of gender and sexuality.
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· 5 years ago
Do you really care about the kids, or do you just like being angry about non-conformity and this is your way of rationalizing it?
She has a point. I don’t think children under 18 should be able to make those kinds of decisions. When I was a kid and adolescent I wanted to be a boy. Because I wanted to pee standing up and do stereotypical “boy” things. I had serious penis envy and every day I said I wanted to be a boy. But now I’m a woman and I’m happy I didn’t grow up in today’s age where parents just rush into changing their kids’ genitals because it’s the “cool” thing to do.
Exactly. There are some case that could be just that. But if you say something like that some people hear you are saying "all cases are a phase" and you are thansphobic. Ugh
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Edited 5 years ago
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· 5 years ago
@ladychaos114 - "I’m happy I didn’t grow up in today’s age where parents just rush into changing their kids’ genitals because it’s the “cool” thing to do." - This. Does. Not. Happen. At least not in reality, only in the minds of people like Matt Walsh and Blair White. And even they don't believe this kind of narrative because they KNOW better. Ask ANY trans person being in or after the transition process.
@itsamemaria - I don't think anyone will be called transphobic by anyone in their right mind for saying they enjoy to have the gender which their primary sexual organs indicated at birth. To believe that trans persons (or parents) can just choose that shit like they choose their halloween costume or the color of their lipstick however is at least pretty ignorant, but spreading those stories by postings and memes against better knowledge is homophobic by definition.
Well... very good points. I might add that nothing about this suggests changing their child’s genitalia. Hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgeries etc. are not the same thing. Now- hormone therapy might stop changes, or might even effect some level of change in developing genitals. A biologically male child given female hormones may end up with a different size penis than they might have otherwise- or a biological female might experience clitoral enlargement to some degree. To what degree if any we can’t say- and saying that hormones “alter genitals” is like saying a parent is altering their child’s genitals by giving them certain medications for other health conditions, or chicken nuggets or dairy.
Oh that's not what I meant @halfdeadhammerhead I can see the point that some kids might be trabsgender and know it since day 1, but also that some cases might be "a phase" and the family should get help to differentiate before any drastic change. But some extremists think just that statement is too anti transgender
@halfdeadhammerhead and @guest_ I apologise. I forgot I must be extremely literal around here. I’m happy my parents didn’t listen to a 6-12 year old and take me to the doctor to “transition” me in any way (whether that be chemical or surgical). I grew out of wanting to be a male as a teenager. As an adult I look back on that time and laugh. If I was a child in this day and age they would have immediately taken me to get hormone therapy. Kids and teens go through phases. Their entire lives shouldn’t be changed because of how they thought when they were 6.
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· 5 years ago
The wrong premise is that if your parents went to the doc, he would just start the transitioning process. Which., Does. Not. Happen. Because of exactly what you said.
The "extremists" that itsamemaria mentioned are very likely trolls riding false flag attacks on mental sanity.
Hopefully. I mean I assume that is some counseling involved before that decision. My fear is that some people might take that as trying "to fix" the kid.
Withvthat said. If it really is what they want. They look better in the long term if they start before puberty probably making the : appearance" aspect better and easier
@itsamemaria - I don't think anyone will be called transphobic by anyone in their right mind for saying they enjoy to have the gender which their primary sexual organs indicated at birth. To believe that trans persons (or parents) can just choose that shit like they choose their halloween costume or the color of their lipstick however is at least pretty ignorant, but spreading those stories by postings and memes against better knowledge is homophobic by definition.
The "extremists" that itsamemaria mentioned are very likely trolls riding false flag attacks on mental sanity.