Well yes. It’s generally best to slowly increase the responsibility and risks we put on a person and trust them with. But at some point you hit a hard cut off right? Unless we make some test or “right of passage” and the age you are an adult is when you can prove to whoever makes the test you can handle adulthood- be 27 and still need a parents permission to do things?
Here is another way to think of if- sex. If it’s a crime for a 40 year old to seduce a 17 year old- but you wake up the next day and BAM- now you’re ready for 40 year olds to hit on you? But wait- that’s a funky rule. If a guy is 19 and a girl is 17 and 3/4ths.... that’s probably legal most places. But what’s so much more mature about a 17 and 3/4tha year old than a 17 and 3 month year old? And what’s so different about 17 and 16 and a half.... gross. Now- many countries- even developed countries- have an age of consent much younger. 16,15,even 14.
So what do you do? Say a 15 year old can handle 2nd base but nothing more is legal, a 16yo can handle 3rd? Or like.... allow an increasing amount of affection starting at 0- isn’t that just... grooming? So you can see if we change the perspective that at its core- the game of “what difference does a few months/years make?” Doesn’t work. But by the same token- how do you handle metering out responsibilities and consequences of life?
If we don’t use some arbitrary age- who decides what criteria make you “ready” to be an adult? How far behind in life do some people get- and how do we handle that- when another kid your age is “ready” to make life changing decisions at 18 and is free to run their lives- and you can’t pass the test and are dribbled out responsibility into your 30’s- not legally allowed to have sex with other adults or choose your own schools or get loans or sign contracts? “I really want this job. Let me go get my mommy to sign the employment papers so I can work here!” It’s complicated. Valid observation- but what’s the solution? Or do we just raise the legal age to the modern point where people seem to “on average” have a good grasp on things- and everyone can wait to be 35 before they can vote or get a student loan etc?
You dont need a criteria, you can just make the consequences for fucking up that decision less severe. For instance if you stop making college and higher eductation force you into obscene debt for life, then making the wrong choice in term of education at 18 doesnt screw you over for life.
In Europe my college cost me 800euros a year, and that's because my parents could afford it so we paid full cost. Some friends whose parents had less income paid 50euro a year because of government assistance. What that meant was I chose a major I thought I'd like and didn't like terribly pressured at having chosen poorly. Worse case scenario my parents were out 2k euros, I was out 2 years and I couldmake a more informed choice at 20 after having spent two years learning different things, some that could stir me in the right direction
The decision is still the same, I picked a college major, but the consequences aren't nearly as severe, and it puts less pressure on the student.
I certainly agree that we can mitigate some consequences- but how does that work with something like- signing a lease for a car or home? Who absorbs the mitigation? If an adult rents a home to an 18yo- and the 18yo breaks that lease- if the results of that breach cost the home owner $2500- the fact they are only 18 doesn’t change that.
But- let’s not go off in all the directions there are issues. Let’s look at school- There is a public college not far from where I live- where if you pay out of pocket the costs are $1600 for tuition- payable over 2 years, or you can get a loan. Things are going bad for you either way if a $1600 loan ruins your life. If you are economically qualified- the US does have free tuition- and about 10 years ago when tuition was about $500 at that same school- you received an additional $2000 a semester if you were economically qualified for financial aid (deems low income.)
The system isn’t perfect- but it’s not what people make it out to be. Yes- if you want to go to the most prestigiously named school, and live on campus and so on- you’ll be looking at a huge debt- but if you go to a public university (which many giants of industry- especially technology- have gone to) and don’t do on campus housing- it’s not so bad.
I knew a guy who could have been one of the first 100 employees at Google- but chose a job as a middle manager at a local but growing retailer. He was offered $100k a year to be a manager with no college education. The janitor at Google became a multi millionaire. How do we mitigate the damage of his choice?
What about the 30-40+ year old who has decades of experience on a job but no education? We could make college free- but 1. They make more money from their years of experience than an entry level grad- and in a new field- a 20yo without experience gets preference in most cases to a 40yo with no experience. The 20yo has a shot at upper management- but unless you’re exceptionally gifted- can you go from working as a warehouse manager for 25 years to being the VP of a new field at your age with only 10 or less years experience? Will they make a 60+ year old CEO with less than 20 years in the game? Maybe. But long odds compared to someone younger.
And 2. If you’re 30,40+ or even in your 20’s with a family or obligations- even if school is free- who’s going to pay your bills and obligations? If my close friend- who never went to school- who has over $1 million in property he has to pay taxes and mortgage on- 2 kids living far away and going to university, 4 car payments, a motor cycle payment, credit card debt on average for a man who makes a couple hundred thousand a year- and all the other bills and trappings of life and obligations- if he lost the ability to do the skilled labor that pays him, or lost his job, or decided he didn’t want to do it- how does he go back to school? Where does the money to cover those bills while he is in school come from?
The same is true of the person who isn’t so lucky. Like a friend who had to work several jobs and take side hustles, who had to drive 600+ Miles a weekend just to see his child- who barely had $2 to run together despite all their hard work- but still needed to take care of a child and pay for transportation to and from their jobs and etc etc- how do we make that easier on them?
I’m not saying it is impossible- I’m just saying that for all the focus on college and free education- we seem to overlook the fact that as far as solutions go- that one doesn’t help everyone. It is a solution that allows some people to do very well and many others to do very poorly- not on merit but simply by circumstances. I’m personally more interested in seeing the basic needs of people fulfilled.
EVERYONE needs somewhere to sleep, good to eat, medical care, dental care. People who will succeed in life tend to do so with or without help. Some people COULD succeed if they had a little help- and some people just won’t. They don’t want to, or no matter what you do they just... won’t. People who have the drive and ability to do well don’t concern me. They can take care of themselves. We work to live. So let’s get rid of that. Let’s guarantee a life- now there is no tragedy. No poor souls worried about being on the street or starving. From that point- it’s just on people if they want more- to go get it- and if they don’t, they aren’t going to starve.
Don't worry about the downvotes, I've accepted that on any political subject people downvote when they disagree rather than downvote when something is poor quality, I dont really care, and to be fair it happens to opinions I disagree with as well.
I don't think you can shield people from the consequences of their own choices their whole life, neither do I think you should. I was mostly addressing the issue of the disproportionate consequences the decisions kids have to make at 18 (out of high school).
If you chose to not pursue an education (college / learn a trade etc...) after high school (and I believe in 2020 thats a really dumb choice) that's on you. But the choice should be "do I have the drive / am I mature enough to realize how important it is", which I believe an 18yo is more than old enough to make for himself. But when that decision comes with a $50k price tag (and the loan and responsabilities that come with it) it's a whole other gamble.
Now- we largely agree on principal, and I want to make clear that my position isn’t completely from personal belief on the subject- but more from the practical issues of the subject and a desire to discus the matter from a more granular level-
Wether the decision to go to school carries a price tag or not- we have agreed that it carries a potentially steep price in consequences regardless of price. It is a serious matter- and wether the individual or the society pays the price tag- it still costs to provide that education. We as humans tend not to value that which is “free.” If we can change majors or be an eternal student without any tangible cost- where do we see the weight to the choice?
The costs or debts incurred in an education are real and relatable. If you choose a certain path- you are committed, you will be consumer resources which another could make use of- and you are incentivized to not take that lightly.
I could certainly see perhaps a system where the “cost” of school was a universal term- for X years after leaving or some such- and that the amount not be fixed but instead be a percentage of earnings taken as garnishments against salary when work starts.
I'm not sure how it works in France, but you could add an age limit to some of the help (the housing help, I do feel the cost of the education itself should be low anyways, so people can chose to get an education later in life) to avoid people taking advantage all life long if you want (something like 25 or 30 or w.e).
But I don't think it's a big concern, because most people don't want to be in school forever. Same as people who think that people on foodstamps are lazy and taking advantage and just enjoy living off the hardwork of others. Almost nobody ENJOYS living off food stamps, it's not a lavish life, and if they had another solution they would take it. And the small portion of people that do aren't worth focusing on, because the benefits of providing that to the whole population outweighs the cost they induce by a lot.
Basically, I don't see that as a raw cost on society, but rather as an investment. You give people the tools to become a productive member of society, and they will give it back because then they will be less likely to be dependent on more government help, they'll pay it back through taxes etc...
I agree we should make education available to benefit society, and personally I think we should offer housing assistance to anyone who needs it- along with revamping systems like housing to prevent gross levels of profiteering from things like a place to live- when there is no reason beyond wealth and control for it. I think the long term goal of society should be to work to make sure everyone at the very least has the “essentials” to survive- and ideally a lifestyle of certain means.
But the idea of “invest in them to pay yourself back” has some truth- but also some failings. If literacy was a rare thing- daily tasks would be insane and it would hurt the literate for example. However- as many jobs have found- there’s a limit to where that is a wise investment.
Offering training to become better at ones job to improve performance benefits the company- but at a point- you’re generally just training someone to leave and get a better job. The training needs to be specific to the tasks you need or anticipate from them, and made in such a way that it isn’t easily portable. Using things like proprietary tools and software is an example of this- being an expert with a program used by only one company makes you an asset to that company- and since no one else uses that system it makes the skill useless elsewhere.
The overall point being- we can’t view education as an investment in society by default because we don’t have a system to ensure that education is put to use to benefit society- or stays within our society. Education to a point is an investment- and education with certain controls is an investment.
In other words- going in half with an investor to start a business or buying stocks in a company aren’t the same thing as handing a guy money and saying “yeah. That’s an investment. I’m sure I’ll get my moneys worth.” If you give someone money- with no idea how they will use it, and an assumption they’ll just naturally return a value equal or greater back to you... that’s not investing. It’s hardly even gambling. You’re just giving money away and hoping good things happen.
Did you do anything on your off time? Volunteer? Part time? Fish or hunt? If you're completely unprepared to start your life, that's on you and your family.
But still, "never too late" is a saying for a reason. Friends, rolemodels, personal ambition, etc, can get you on track. Ask for help, find an example to follow, and don't be worried to try something new and different.
For instance, I joined the Army right out of high school, and just shy of two years in shit is going really sour. Partly due to things beyond my control, and partly due to my own actions. But despair I do not, because I've always known that I'm ultimately my own master. Whatever hand is dealt, I will play. I do not fear walking away from the table. And I know that if some 30 year old motherfucker can pull up his big boy panties and join the Army as a private just to be some teen's subordin, then I can certainly walk away at 20 and move on to something else.
Don't ask "Who will let me", ask only "Who can stop me".
A lot of people think of the first two years of college as a waste of money and time. And although it is. I think working on general subjects helps to narrow down what you want w/o wasting to much time if you decide to change majors. At least it was my case. Changed to totally different major because I experienced different clases
In Europe my college cost me 800euros a year, and that's because my parents could afford it so we paid full cost. Some friends whose parents had less income paid 50euro a year because of government assistance. What that meant was I chose a major I thought I'd like and didn't like terribly pressured at having chosen poorly. Worse case scenario my parents were out 2k euros, I was out 2 years and I couldmake a more informed choice at 20 after having spent two years learning different things, some that could stir me in the right direction
The decision is still the same, I picked a college major, but the consequences aren't nearly as severe, and it puts less pressure on the student.
I don't think you can shield people from the consequences of their own choices their whole life, neither do I think you should. I was mostly addressing the issue of the disproportionate consequences the decisions kids have to make at 18 (out of high school).
If you chose to not pursue an education (college / learn a trade etc...) after high school (and I believe in 2020 thats a really dumb choice) that's on you. But the choice should be "do I have the drive / am I mature enough to realize how important it is", which I believe an 18yo is more than old enough to make for himself. But when that decision comes with a $50k price tag (and the loan and responsabilities that come with it) it's a whole other gamble.
But I don't think it's a big concern, because most people don't want to be in school forever. Same as people who think that people on foodstamps are lazy and taking advantage and just enjoy living off the hardwork of others. Almost nobody ENJOYS living off food stamps, it's not a lavish life, and if they had another solution they would take it. And the small portion of people that do aren't worth focusing on, because the benefits of providing that to the whole population outweighs the cost they induce by a lot.
But still, "never too late" is a saying for a reason. Friends, rolemodels, personal ambition, etc, can get you on track. Ask for help, find an example to follow, and don't be worried to try something new and different.
For instance, I joined the Army right out of high school, and just shy of two years in shit is going really sour. Partly due to things beyond my control, and partly due to my own actions. But despair I do not, because I've always known that I'm ultimately my own master. Whatever hand is dealt, I will play. I do not fear walking away from the table. And I know that if some 30 year old motherfucker can pull up his big boy panties and join the Army as a private just to be some teen's subordin, then I can certainly walk away at 20 and move on to something else.
Don't ask "Who will let me", ask only "Who can stop me".