Hmmm… I’d say yes and no. The comedian Monique is trending over a dispute. A past dispute she had was pay. Compared to certain black male comedians and certain white female comedians she wasn’t being laid as much for her streaming specials and was upset. Some argued that she didn’t have the ticket sales or revenue numbers of those performers. Others argued that despite that she has prestigious awards for her art that those others don’t. So in my own personal experience, I was once hired for a job along with a few others for the exact same job. The company accidentally sent out the offer letter with the contact specifics for ALL of us. So I got to see what the others were being paid. My offer was higher than the others in the group, marginally higher than some and notably higher than others. Of course, we all had slightly different career histories and all of us were maybe within a 10-15 year range age wise. I can’t say exactly what factored in to the decision by the employer.
Did they value a certain type of experience more than others? While all of us were coming to this job as a sort of career change, my experience was directly related to what they wanted whereas the others had experience in the general field but not with the specifics of the role. Was that why? Did I interview better? Did I just ask for more or was my previous salary higher so they needed a larger offer to entice me? I don’t know to this day. One of the others ended up quitting after getting the email. Two others on the lower end seemed from my perspective and one other I grew close to on the job to seem resentful or distant after that compared to the relationship we’d had with them up to that point. I can’t say I appreciated my personal information being giving out that way, even if by accident.
So I think there is a lot to this subject. Many groups are traditionally paid less for the same jobs, if no one discusses pay in an office where women or people of color etc. all make less than their peers, no one would likely ever know. That’s true. If you make $10k less a year than a peer in the same job, you are less likely to ask for some huge raise etc which certainly benefits the company and hurts you.
That said- you ask for what you want and accept what you’ll take right? If you were happy to be hired yesterday for $70k and then you find out the next week the other person hired to the same job gets $80k, how does what they are paid change what you are paid? You were happy with $70 until you found out someone else made more. That doesn’t really make sense of you think about it. You might feel cheated, but were you cheated or did you cheat yourself? Did they get offered $80 or did They ask or negotiate on their value?
We can argue that you were afraid of you asked for more you wouldn’t be hired- but they hired them for more- so we can’t say for certain. We can say that if you had asked for $80 and not been hired that they don’t think you are worth $80, so if you asked for $80 and they countered $70, would you have walked away…?
Discrimination is where this gets tricky of course. It’s one thing to be offered less because you don’t have the experience or credentials or didn’t demonstrate your soft skills or value, weren’t as good a negotiator etc. however we can’t rule out that you weren’t offered less because of a bias that based on some aspect like gender or such they see you as worth less or not as capable etc. even saying “they interviewed better” is drought with bias.
To some degree our gender and background and other things can influence how we present ourselves and engage people or are perceived by people. Even things like accents can impact perception- for example there is a bias among most Americans outside the native regions that commonly those with “southern” accents as perceived as less intelligent regardless of what they say. Women are often perceived as more passive than men and assertive women are often perceived as aggressive or difficult. All sorts of things like that. So the very concept of weighting candidate compensation on interviews can’t escape the possibility for bias.
There is an other aspect to discussing wages which calls back to my opening stories. Manners. Manners aren’t just stuffy formalities. They exist largely to help guide social interactions- we can think of manners as in part a system designed to ensure we treat others thoughtfully and avoid social problems. Since manners are often taught through observation or memorization as “rules” we often aren’t aware of the actual purpose behind them.
In the case of matters of finances, there are many reasons why we may not want to discuss money. One is that we can obviously make people feel badly. When you’re a kid starting out in your teens or 20’s you may be making minimum wage or a bit above. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you’re in the mailroom the person with the window office you deliver to probably makes more. We can see what our coworkers wear, drive, how they carry themselves and from the little details of their lives they talk about or we observe we can get some idea to..
.. compare finances. That’s a risky game since we don’t know things like stocks or side projects, credit, debt, partner earnings etc etc. but we can at least get an impression if they are living about the same as us or not and with some tactful questions can puzzle it out pretty well. But there are many reasons we may not want our finances known. In my adult working life I have only made the mistake of letting my family or less than close friends know what I make once. People get weird about money. People who see you struggling and are supportive may suddenly change tunes or even reach a hand out to borrow money if they feel you “make good money.” People can get judgmental too or entitled etc.
People who used to split checks may start relying on you to pay or shoulder most of the bill, they may feel like you’re “stingy” for not being freer with your money. People may be less honest or sympathetic- phrases get said like- “meh. It’s not like they can’t afford it…” when people ask for your help financially but you say: “I wish I could but things are tight here too…” if they’re making $30k and you make $50k or whatever- suddenly it isn’t “I understand” but now they feel bitter- “they could help me but they didn’t.” “They make enough, to them what I’m asking just means they have to cut back a little for a month but it is a matter of life and death for me!” Etc. If you’re making $100k and your friends or family are used to making like $40k- many can’t imagine how you’d ever need to be careful with your money or why you can’t pay for things etc.
People also can’t understand that even if you have the money to give or help one or some of them- you might have 10 people or more with hands out or expectations. You have to say no to someone, but most of them are going to feel some way about it if they aren’t the one you help. Most will think their need is more important. Even when they aren’t after the money, people will have opinions on how you spend your money. We already see it commonly when welfare comes up. It’s very common that if a person on welfare has a nice pair of shoes or a newer car many will say: “I don’t even have something that nice and I work…” or “maybe if they weren’t buying stuff like that they could afford rent…” completely ignoring that basically all of us might buy at least one nice thing once every while. We don’t know if that’s the only nice pair of shoes they own or if they got a great deal or won a raffle or received a gift etc.
So suddenly when you make more than others your problems often aren’t problems. “That’s my right they have to work Saturday” turns into “well, for what they make is expect them to work Saturday and Sunday as well.” When you are stressed about how to pay for college or braces for your kid it might be “for what they make they should be able to afford it..” or “well, they could afford that new fancy washer drier” or “I’ve seen their house, they have a whole room full of vintage guitars. Maybe spend less on toys and you wouldn’t have that problem…” totally ignoring that a collection like that could be the result of decades of collecting and that they probably didn’t go out one day and buy $25k in collectibles just on a whim etc.
There is a lot to the issue. People get weird about money and if you don’t think they do- see my previous question- why do you care what I make? I can hire a singer for a party for $100, Mariah Carey is a singer, do you think she sings for $100 a gig? Should everyone in a job get paid the same because the job is the same? Do you believe that you as a person, to have you come sing at an event would be comparable to having someone like Mariah Carey or Sting or Adele or whoever come out and sing? Enzo Ferrari madd fast cars with his name on the side that are expensive. Is a car you make going to be worth the same? Many aspects. Many facets. But the fact that you can be happy with your salary every day until you find out someone else makes more should tell you that people get weird with money. You didn’t feel underpaid until you found out someone made more; or you didn’t think your work was worth more to ask for more until someone else got more. So it has many facets.
If you’re open to dos using your finances do it. If you want to accept everything that could bring that is all you. I’d say that we should respect each other.
That said- you ask for what you want and accept what you’ll take right? If you were happy to be hired yesterday for $70k and then you find out the next week the other person hired to the same job gets $80k, how does what they are paid change what you are paid? You were happy with $70 until you found out someone else made more. That doesn’t really make sense of you think about it. You might feel cheated, but were you cheated or did you cheat yourself? Did they get offered $80 or did They ask or negotiate on their value?
Discrimination is where this gets tricky of course. It’s one thing to be offered less because you don’t have the experience or credentials or didn’t demonstrate your soft skills or value, weren’t as good a negotiator etc. however we can’t rule out that you weren’t offered less because of a bias that based on some aspect like gender or such they see you as worth less or not as capable etc. even saying “they interviewed better” is drought with bias.
In the case of matters of finances, there are many reasons why we may not want to discuss money. One is that we can obviously make people feel badly. When you’re a kid starting out in your teens or 20’s you may be making minimum wage or a bit above. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you’re in the mailroom the person with the window office you deliver to probably makes more. We can see what our coworkers wear, drive, how they carry themselves and from the little details of their lives they talk about or we observe we can get some idea to..
Also, is there any proof of that conspiracy theory?