I love the changing dialog about rape and rape prevention. Things like this need to be seen to put an end to victim blaming. According to recent statistics at least 90% of rapes go unreported because either the victim thinks no one will believe them, or that it was some how their fault.
I completely agree, that is why I love lists like these. It's meant to adjust the way people think about rape prevention, just like you say- and it places the responsibility back where it belongs.
I should be able to walk down a pitch dark alley at night nude and not get assaulted. It's not women who need to watch out, or take care, it's society that needs to be responsible for there actions. Stop telling women to be careful and safe and start making a healthy safe society to live in. Raise your children right people!
Holy cow, why all the downvotes? I guess people on this website aren't a fan of reality. :P
We could spend all day talking about things we "should" be able to do... Like leave your car unlocked all the time, keep your shoes on as you walk through airport security, not take self-defense lessons or carry pepper spray in your purse, wear your Social Security Number on yourforehead, take a vacation to Afghanistan without the risk of being blown up or beheaded... All kinds of things. It's great to have an "ideal world" in mind where it's safe to do what you want, but don't let that stop you from living in the real world.
Just because you don't deserve something doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to protect yourself. A bank doesn't deserve to be robbed, but that's no reason to not put in security systems. A woman doesn't deserve to be raped, but that's no reason to not be careful.
some people on this site has an extremely lax view on reality. whether you like it or not there are bad people in the world who would hurt you for no reason other than circumstance. nobody blames the victims but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make an effort to protect yourself and make smarter choices with regards to personal security, it not only reduces the risk but also makes you feel better. this goes for all things no just rapes. you guys need to get off your high horse.
I find it very interesting that this post, which is obviously satirical in it's content, is drawing such a reaction largely among gender lines. No where has anyone or anything stated women should not protect themselves, because women know we're taught to protect ourselves from sexual assault from her young ages ("cross your legs!" "Stranger danger!" Etc) Not being taught about rape is not an option for women, but I suppose you'd have to be a woman to know that, to know we are always aware of the danger of being raped, we are always vigilant.
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This list, which again, is obviously a satirical list (you understand we don't expect rapists to follow lists, any of them) is a comment against the thinking of society about rape. That the victim controls the actions of the rapists, that they are at fault for causing sexual arousal, drinking or walking alone. That they should have followed "rules," they should have stopped it. I'm glad it made you all think, hopefully you will continue.
It's not victim blaming to tell women to be aware of their surroundings. It is victim blaming to say women need to be careful of getting someone "falsely aroused," there is a large difference in the thinking between those ideas.
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No where in this post or any of the comments (other than the ones you all have made) does it suggest for women not to protect themselves- that is an inference you made on your own. But your comments prove perfectly why this post is needed, and why the conversations need to start happening.
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When we believe by telling women to go beyond normal steps anyone would take, man or woman, to protect themselves (like altering their appearance, being reliant on others, etc.) should be the practical and normal advice, there is something very wrong with how we are addressing the rape epidemic. When we expect the victims to do the work of protector, advocate, and lawyer, there is something very wrong. The conversation needs to change.
That is a genuine load of bull. "False arrousal" is NO ONES fault except for the person who gets arroused. Some people like to screw sheep, but you'll never hear anyone say, "well, that sheep shouldn't have looked at him all seductive-like"
You seem to be upset at an idea that is not being presented here. While I find your argument for false arousal murky, the overall point you are arguing is not in this post. No where is it arguing against practical protection measures, so I am really puzzled at your overall tone.
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So let's end this on a practical note- since you are a man, and I believe you would like to work to stop rape I would like to direct you to an organization that is doing just that. Very rarely do I see none-feminist men speak out against rape, mostly I see them argue against the way women choose to empower themselves against it- so this organization is really important in breaking the stereotypes that only women and only feminists advocate against rape. I am sure you'll find other men as passionate about ways to stop rape as yourself: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
I think the problem here started when matrix and I both made totally neutral comments that advocated both types of rape prevention -- fixing rapists and teaching women (and men) basic precaution. And for that we got downvoted halfway to hell. I think that's where the defensiveness started. Neither of us said anything that was even remotely victim-blaming, but we got pushed into that position by everyone here.
That happens to me pretty much every time I say something here, so I'm used to it. Maybe matrix isn't yet.
Anyway, I think we all mostly agree here. Rape is the fault of the rapist. That's it. We need to help them take responsibility for their actions, even as we take steps to protect ourselves.
The most productive thing men can do to prevent rape, other than watch their own actions, is speak out to their other male friends about consent, respect, and boundaries. Women don't need to be told to take measures to protect ourselves- we have society telling us to be afraid every day, more male voices trying to "educate" us on the dangers of stranger rape is not helpful.
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If you're a man who wants to stop rape, educate yourself and speak out to your friends about the far more prevalent date/acquaintance rapes that occur. The link Saviour posted is a fantastic place to start, good luck on your journeys and further learning.
I think it's foolish and unsafe to just assume that women (and men) have already heard it all and therefore don't need to be given updated self-protection information. I promise, not every woman on the planet has heard everything you have, and if a post is deemed repetitive and annoying (can't imagine why it would be) by most people, it may be new to one or two viewers, and if it's enough to possibly prevent just one rape, it's worth it.
Just the other day I read something someone had posted (I don't remember if it was here or somewhere else) that described some of the current trends in rape/abduction techniques and some of the traps criminals are using to lure women into vulnerable positions. This was new, updated information released by a police station that most people hadn't seen before. You can't tell me that those kinds of things are "not helpful". That's just ridiculous.
Besides, educating the public on safety doesn't do anything to take away from efforts directed at the potential rapists themselves. Why not both? It's not like teaching people to protect themselves means you can't ever do anything to help rapists themselves. Sure, maybe it's "less productive", but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. It's also "less productive" to put in bullet-proof glass in all the banks than it is to try and actually prevent bank robberies, but that doesn't mean is not still a good idea.
My big question is this: if you can help somebody, why shouldn't you? "Oh, I'm sure she's heard it before." "I don't want to come off as a victim-blamer." "I don't want to sound sexist." "If she gets raped, it's not her fault anyway, it's the rapist's." Those are all pretty lousy excuses to not do something that might save someone from a terrible experience.
What you saw was this: http://m.funsubstance.com/fun/120970/please-read-could-save-lives/ and it's a perfect example as to why lists like that and other "helpful advice" and hearsay do the exact opposite of productively preventing rape. Here is an article debunking that list (and many more like it) point by point: http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/ninetips.asp
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That was an excellent example, thank you. I hope you enjoy the Men Can Stop Rape group- your energy towards wanting to end sexual assaults are much better used there then here, I am sure we agree on that. Much luck, I look forward to hearing about your good works! :-)
Interesting, I noticed that that Snopes article was making a different point than what you guys are making. Okay, so maybe that one list is unreliable. Okay, that's good to know. But I noticed that the article refers to a guy named Pat Malone who gives seminars on protection. It also counters the weak list of protection techniques and provides its own list of ideas that are better. You're trying to say that this advice is hurtful. But obviously neither Pat Malone nor that Snopes article agree with you.
Anyway, enough of this. I still don't understand why at least seven of you are repeatedly downvoting everything I say. If I'm being offensive, I'd love to hear how. I suspect I'll never know. Whatever.
Ah, there is nothing better than a man explaining to a group of women "what they are trying to say" and what they really mean. It's fantastic, really. Saviour has said over and over that this post wasn't speaking out against basic protection, and gave you all excellent ways to actually be productive in the fight against rape, rather than complain about how women are doing it wrong. But no, you chose to ignore that and continue saying falsehoods. Which is anyone surprised? Show of hands?
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Saviour specifically spoke for the need of more Pats and less people spreading false information thinking they are being helpful. She said we believe there Is only a problem when we are telling women to go above and beyond those steps of basic self defense to things like altering their appearance, being reliant on others, etc. This post says nothing against basic self defense. Why you men feel you need to instruct us is beyond me.
I love how it's always about gender too. Every time, it's "you're a man. Therfore, shut up." Do you think I would be liked more if I were female? Or will these people be satisfied with no less than total intellectual surrender and submission? It would be interesting to find out... 'cause I don't see how gender has anything to do with the validity of my points.
*sigh...
Lol, absolutely. When you have no actual argument to make and nothing intelligent to say, blame women. Sure, you have been talking about them being women and telling them you know what's best, but how dare they point out you're men? Crazy feminists, amirite? Totally breaking our balls by pointing out you're arguing something this post is not against. You should be allowed to dominate the conversation, damn it, how dare they!! You can keep bringing up your pointless points and derailing dialogue! And when those women call you on it, yell oppression and tell everyone you're a victim, and how they've hurt you. Because irony is a dish best served with ignorance.
I definitely think the point of this post has been proven far better than I ever could have proven it on my own- the need to change the dialogue on rape, to give a broader understanding about helping survivors and productive prevention is desperately needed. I am glad to be able to use this forum to help spread awareness <3
Haha hey look, I was right! I've always felt like I would get downvoted just for breathing too hard, but I wanted to find out for sure. Now I know -- I don't even have to say anything and people will still think I'm offensive. That's oddly comforting in a way. It's good to know that the downvotes aren't actually a result of people disagreeing with my points, it's just a vendetta against me.
Thanks guys.
I'm really done now, I just had to do that. :)
Well, and here I thought it was something a little creepy and immature- but I am sure (?) people type how they are breathing (or "breathing heavily" in this case) on many posts, not just ones about sexual assault. I am sure if you post your breath's actions on other posts you would get similar results. I know I am utterly fascinated.
I'm glad you can see how you altered the conversation, but since the conversation has degraded to whatever breathing exercises you are doing and nothing productive is being said, I would appreciate you to actually leave the post, as you have said you were several times now. Sexual assaults, rape, and molestation isn't something I joke about or find amusing when others do. So I am fine with bring "no fun" on this topic- and since you've admitted you have had nothing of value to say for days, actually keep your word and leave. Thank you.
I personally have never seen that meme- if quoting memes is how others make their points intellectually, then I believe they would also understand what the actual interpretation most people would have of [breathing heavily]. I also think he was capable of citing that defense himself if that was his intention, and it obviously was not.
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Again, I don't find this productive, and after several announced exits, why you all continue to post your breathing habits, memes (?), and defense of them are beyond me. There is no respectful dialogue from this- so please keep your word(s) and cease. Thank you. Again.
Well it is technically a risk. While these kinds of things are important, we shouldn't cut ourselves off from common sense tips like "don't walk down unlit streets alone at night." Sure you're not asking for it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't still protect yourself.
We could spend all day talking about things we "should" be able to do... Like leave your car unlocked all the time, keep your shoes on as you walk through airport security, not take self-defense lessons or carry pepper spray in your purse, wear your Social Security Number on yourforehead, take a vacation to Afghanistan without the risk of being blown up or beheaded... All kinds of things. It's great to have an "ideal world" in mind where it's safe to do what you want, but don't let that stop you from living in the real world.
Just because you don't deserve something doesn't mean you shouldn't do your best to protect yourself. A bank doesn't deserve to be robbed, but that's no reason to not put in security systems. A woman doesn't deserve to be raped, but that's no reason to not be careful.
°
This list, which again, is obviously a satirical list (you understand we don't expect rapists to follow lists, any of them) is a comment against the thinking of society about rape. That the victim controls the actions of the rapists, that they are at fault for causing sexual arousal, drinking or walking alone. That they should have followed "rules," they should have stopped it. I'm glad it made you all think, hopefully you will continue.
°
No where in this post or any of the comments (other than the ones you all have made) does it suggest for women not to protect themselves- that is an inference you made on your own. But your comments prove perfectly why this post is needed, and why the conversations need to start happening.
°
When we believe by telling women to go beyond normal steps anyone would take, man or woman, to protect themselves (like altering their appearance, being reliant on others, etc.) should be the practical and normal advice, there is something very wrong with how we are addressing the rape epidemic. When we expect the victims to do the work of protector, advocate, and lawyer, there is something very wrong. The conversation needs to change.
°
So let's end this on a practical note- since you are a man, and I believe you would like to work to stop rape I would like to direct you to an organization that is doing just that. Very rarely do I see none-feminist men speak out against rape, mostly I see them argue against the way women choose to empower themselves against it- so this organization is really important in breaking the stereotypes that only women and only feminists advocate against rape. I am sure you'll find other men as passionate about ways to stop rape as yourself: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
That happens to me pretty much every time I say something here, so I'm used to it. Maybe matrix isn't yet.
Anyway, I think we all mostly agree here. Rape is the fault of the rapist. That's it. We need to help them take responsibility for their actions, even as we take steps to protect ourselves.
+
If you're a man who wants to stop rape, educate yourself and speak out to your friends about the far more prevalent date/acquaintance rapes that occur. The link Saviour posted is a fantastic place to start, good luck on your journeys and further learning.
Just the other day I read something someone had posted (I don't remember if it was here or somewhere else) that described some of the current trends in rape/abduction techniques and some of the traps criminals are using to lure women into vulnerable positions. This was new, updated information released by a police station that most people hadn't seen before. You can't tell me that those kinds of things are "not helpful". That's just ridiculous.
My big question is this: if you can help somebody, why shouldn't you? "Oh, I'm sure she's heard it before." "I don't want to come off as a victim-blamer." "I don't want to sound sexist." "If she gets raped, it's not her fault anyway, it's the rapist's." Those are all pretty lousy excuses to not do something that might save someone from a terrible experience.
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That was an excellent example, thank you. I hope you enjoy the Men Can Stop Rape group- your energy towards wanting to end sexual assaults are much better used there then here, I am sure we agree on that. Much luck, I look forward to hearing about your good works! :-)
Anyway, enough of this. I still don't understand why at least seven of you are repeatedly downvoting everything I say. If I'm being offensive, I'd love to hear how. I suspect I'll never know. Whatever.
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Saviour specifically spoke for the need of more Pats and less people spreading false information thinking they are being helpful. She said we believe there Is only a problem when we are telling women to go above and beyond those steps of basic self defense to things like altering their appearance, being reliant on others, etc. This post says nothing against basic self defense. Why you men feel you need to instruct us is beyond me.
*sigh...
Thanks guys.
I'm really done now, I just had to do that. :)
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Again, I don't find this productive, and after several announced exits, why you all continue to post your breathing habits, memes (?), and defense of them are beyond me. There is no respectful dialogue from this- so please keep your word(s) and cease. Thank you. Again.