I don't think they shouldn't have used the black for the vaccine because it ends up looking like "have your baby enveloped by darkness or be injected with it." Is it just me who thinks that?
The whole inject with a little vs. exposed to all of it is because of what a vaccine actually is. Because vaccines are injections of a dead or much weaker version of a disease (put there so your body will be able to recognize it in the future, and therefore will be able to fight it), there's a little bit of black goo. But without vaccines, you're exposing your kid, kids, even yourself to much worse things.
It's called let them run around outside and eat dirt... Vaccines only work until the virus mutates, then your vaccine fails... Also since people seem to get mad at the natural approach, many big name medical facilities in the United States have stated that improving your immune system through natural means, i.e eating dirt, touching people *gasp* is a more perfect immunity then vaccines can produce in people (in layman's terms: Eating dirt is better than vaccines)
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· 10 years ago
Except that vaccines are used for diseases which commonly kill or maim before immunity can develop. The natural way is only superior for minor diseases that vaccines wouldn't be used for in the first place.
Yet most of these diseases are nearly, or are eradicated from the world. Therefore why do we need to put a virus in our body that is gone from this world? Here this should help everyone, both for and against vaccines http://vaccines.procon.org/#arguments
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The 'cons' that list are exaggerated, ignorant of basic science and/or economics, or just outright wrong. It is because of vaccines that these diseases no longer infect people; they sill exist, they just can't get a foothold in the human population.
That and the process to cure people from them has led to them not being able to thrive... honestly this can go on for a long time -.- Also to prove your first point wrong we have the flu vaccine, which is a relatively harmless virus, also chickenpox, pretty much harmless except that it increases likelihood of shingles when you get older...
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· 10 years ago
"That and the process to cure people from them has led to them not being able to thrive..."
Yes, as I said, the vaccines are responsible for it, and continue to be responsible for it.
"Also to prove your first point wrong we have the flu vaccine, which is a relatively harmless virus"
Wrong. Worldwide, influenza is responsible for 250,000 to 500,000 death per year. The people at risk are the very young or old and immunocompromised, exactly the people who benefit most from herd immunity.
"also chickenpox, pretty much harmless except that it increases likelihood of shingles when you get older..."
Sure about that? http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html
Influenza isn't what kills those 250,000 - 500,000 people a year. Influenza itself is harmless, the most you get from it is a severe headache, however while your body fights the virus other diseases are able to attack the body such as pneumonia and bronchitis... try again...
Chickenpox is the same way in many aspects...you are very unlikely to get Toxic Shock Syndrome because its main cause is bacterial such as strep or staph. Sepsis being more prominent in today's society for potential drastic complications only because bacteria has evolved to become immune to our vaccines and antibiotics, therefore disease such as pneumonia (which can cause Sepsis) become harder to fight. Encephalitis is the result of your immune system attacking your own brain when it is fighting an infection, this could potentially happen with any disease know to mankind now...you could get it from a cold... The chickenpox virus does not kill, however it can lead to your body contracting something worse.
"Influenza isn't what kills those 250,000 - 500,000 people a year. Influenza itself is harmless, the most you get from it is a severe headache, however while your body fights the virus other diseases are able to attack the body such as pneumonia and bronchitis... try again... "
This does not change the fact that those people would not have died had they been immunised against the flu. Try again.
"The chickenpox virus does not kill, however it can lead to your body contracting something worse."
Same point.
People who get the influenza vaccine still get the flu... The same with chickenpox however the chance is reduced greatly, also with the common administration of the chickenpox vaccine being with the measles and mumps vaccines it can potentially cause seizures in the child that are vaccinated... Also the cold can potentially cause all the same things that the flu causes yet we don't vaccinate against the common cold... hmmm
Wrong. Cite your source for that before you start spewing bullshit.
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People still get the flu after the vaccine because one vaccine does not protect against all of them.
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There are three types of influenza, A, B and C. Type A has 198 subtypes. Type B has two main subtypes and are identified by lineage and strain. Type C infections are mild and not thought to cause outbreaks.
The seasonal flu vaccine is formulated for what the CDC and the WHO think are going to be the most common ones that year. It also doesn't protect against illness that have flu like symptoms and are often mistaken as the flu.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm?mobile=nocontent
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A Common Cold vaccine is impossible because the common cold is an umbrella term for an illness that is caused by one of more than 200 different viruses. It's also not pandemicly fatal like the flu.
http://www.m.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes
This is actually a fascinating and educational discussion. Can we have more? I'm actually learning something.
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"Yet we know which viruses can cause the Common Cold, which viruses are more likely to cause it. "
No one said we didn't know, just that there are a lot.
"Also to prove that the Common Cold can cause a lot of the same things as Influenza I give you"
Not a single one of those complications are anywhere near as severe as the flu commonly is, and they certainly don't kill as often as the flu does.
No one has died because they were shot with a gun, they died because a bullet perforated their body.
Yes, the flu doesn't kill people DIRECTLY, the flu causes the complications that kill them. If they did not have the flu, they would not have died, what is it about this you fail to understand?
And again, the complications of the common cold are nowhere near as severe as those of the flu, yes there are some superficial similarities, like the similarities between T-Rex and a chicken.
EVERY Complication the Flu had the Common Cold had the same ones. Pneumonia, Bronchitis, Ear infection, Sinus infection... Also people die when shot by a gun since it directly propels a projectile towards your person, Influenza and the Common Cold do not push Pneumonia or Bronchitis onto your person, those viruses are always around and attacking our body, They are able to gain a foot hold because our immune system can only multi-task to a certain degree. So analogy defeated.
No it's not. You've taken credible information and extrapolated the data to serve your own conclusions. That's not how science works. You can not cherry pick fact and reasoning to create an argument. You have to use all the data, and all the results, or else you wind up with what you have presented here; misinformation and conclusions not supported by what sources you've presented. Your basic lack of knowledge about influenza, vaccines, and how viruses work in the body, shows that you're not nearly as knowldeable as you would want us all to believe.
What have I misused? The Flu and the Common Cold act in the same way (as in have the same symptoms) They can cause the same complications, I have shown you my sources, Mayo Clinic doesn't misinform that much about things. You also don't need to be an extraordinarily educated individual to know how influenza, vaccines, and viruses work. However the argument presently was not about knowledge of the subject, but the complications and need for vaccinations of small harmless illnesses such as influenza and chickenpox.
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· 10 years ago
They have similar complications yes, but not at the same rate or severity. Deaths from complications of the common cold are so rare I can't even find statistics for it, the few cases that have occurred get papers written about them! Meanwhile the flu kills half a million people every year. They may have superficial similarities but they're not comparable in any real sense.
I don't even have anything to say now since my point that they have the same symptoms and complications was proven now thank you. Also Influenza is in essence the Common Cold but it happens to fast that our body can't respond quick enough, this leads to the complications, The Common Cold happens slowly so we can fight it easier. This is why Influenza's complications are so deadly.
how so? I have backed my statements with evidence from accredited medical facilities, you have sited one source this entire discussion.
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· 10 years ago
The sources you have cited do not support the claim you are making. You are cherry picking your information and completely ignoring the real numbers that prove you wrong.
Are you sure it isn't the other way around? I haven't cherry-picked anything, I understand debates (having taking courses for college) and the sources I have proven support my claim, I also have not ignored the numbers, I just look at them as they were, not the flu killing but as complications developed while having the flu killing people. So I'll ask again, be specific this time, how is everything in my comment wrong?
You have completely ignored the real statistics that utterly destroy your position, so no, you're the one cherry picking here. If you want to know how your comment is wrong, look back up the chain, you've already posted those arguments and they've been disproven, several times already.
I see nothing wrong with my arguments, or anything that disproves them, only argues against them...you do know the difference I assume...So perhaps to address the area of your concern you would be kind enough to point out these areas in the debate...
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· 10 years ago
Perhaps you should try re-reading them, the catastrophic flaw in your argument has been pointed out several times and you have persistently ignored it. If you are simply incapable of understanding it, then I really have no idea how to simplify to the point where you could understand it, but I'll try summarising it anyway: the superficial similarities between the common cold and the flu are meaningless in light of the actual numbers of deaths caused.
And if you're a vegan breastfeeding your child, you should just kill yourself right now. And your child. I'll help you. Because you're starving your child and no infant in a first world country should have to starve to death.
EDIT: I mean parents who don't consume meat proteins in general (eggs, fish, shellfish...)
That shit is already happening. For a complete and total loss of faith in humanity:
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html
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The good news, if there is any to be had in these cases, is that some of the parents are going to jail. The tragedy is that not all of them and they're not all life sentences.
The worst thing about the cases in the link, isn't even just that the children died, but they died excruciatingly. Hunger and dehydration are horribly physically painful for infants and toddlers. I'd bet that children who survive such malnourishment also have severe emotional damage.
Absolutely. You can't have a well rounded diet without meat, sorry, but you just can't. No one would be able to be vegan a hundred years ago (and be healthy at the same time), because we didn't have access to the vitamins/proteins that people get in a shot or a pill. Yeah, so 'natural'. If you want to be vegan, fine, but don't expose your child to crippling hunger and deficiencies in their diet, I've also heard of animals that have died because their owners refused to feed them meat.
Just a question, as I'm not too familiar with the subject of vegan parents, what is your opinion on vegetarian families? I'm sure you're aware, most people of the Hindu religion do not believe in the consumption of meat and as a result they lead vegetarian lifestyles. My friend who's Hindu once told me as we walked pass a house that was having a barbecue that she gets sick at the scent of meat as she's been vegetarian since birth, now she's transitioning into becoming a vegan. However she's only one case, what's your opinion? :)
No I was born with health problems. Im 20 years old and I have plenty of experience with vegan-ism obviously. There are many many ways to get the nutrition you need, including proteins, from tons of foods other than meat
I personally have no problems with any mentality as long it doesn't hurt anyone else. Hell, you can be a mass murderer at heart, but as long as you don't act on those impulses I really couldn't care less. Same with veganism. I have no problems with vegans or the vegan mentality. My problem is when they either start to push it on others or, like in this case, starve the infant because of your militantly strict mentality towards your own ideas that you don't realize that you're actually hurting someone. And not just any someone, your own child who's not even one year old.
As I said previously, I have been a vegan my entire life. I am 20 years old. I know all about what I can and cannot do lol. And I agree that pushing your beliefs onto someone else is wrong. People try to make me eat meat all the time, but I never try to make people vegan lol
I might be remembering something incorrectly, but I believe that breast milk needs something that only meat-based products can provide. It's not proteins because you can get that from nuts and beans and whatnot. I think it's some amino acid or something that translates to Vita B12. If I'm correct, go on and breastfeed your child. No problem. But have some of that supplement on hand because the baby needs it.
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I'm sorry about the violence and hate in my first comment, it's that I'm sickened by the fact that a child has starved to death in a well-off middle-class family in a first-world country.
Animals do produce them. The problem with breast milk from a strict vegan mother is that it doesn't contain enough fat or DHA. Now, that doesn't mean that the mother would have to change her diet. But she would need to supplement her child's diet to get that fat and DHA. Children are not born with the coating that protects nerve cells (the myelin sheith). They develop it by consuming the right type of fats. This one reason why children who are malnourished have developmental problems, and can actually lead to permanent mental retardation.
Idk, I just dont think about it too much because it seems like everyone has to do that hahaha. Do people who can eat meat not have to supplement their childrens diets? It seems like they do. Also, Im not going to raise my child vegan unless they have what I have. And who knows, maybe I will bottlefeed lol
No, they don't have to supplement a breastfeed child's diet. Children don't start eating regular food until after 6months or so. And even then, they still need breast milk or formula because beginner foods, and the amount a child is able to consume vs breast milk, does not contain enough nutrients, calories or fats.
People who eat an omnivore diet do not need a supplement for missing nutrients or vitamins. Unless they decide to limit themselves substantially in the variety of foods they eat, no one should really ever need a vitamin pill. But to those who choose or have to or have specific medical problems, vitamins are important to health.
Yes. Because formula is not vegan, some vegan parents choose to not use it, health and nutrition only become an issue when ideals are placed above what's best for a child. Using formula would negate any worry of nutritional problems for both a breastfed baby who's mother is vegan, and one who is unable or chooses not to. It's a really good option for any mother, even mothers who have a vegetarian or omnivore diet and breastfeed. Not everyone is able to breastfeed or can produce enough to feed their child.
Ok I was just wondering because everyone arguing that you need to add supplements to your diet didn't make sense once they brought up formulas and supplements...
The vaccine contains the sickness to help build you immune system to it. So if they give you a chicken pox shot and you come in contact with chicken pox your body has more of a chance to fight it off. If you think this is dangerous to give to your child you dont have to but you also cant be surprised when they get severly ill
Most vaccines currently in use use dead viruses. It's very common for children to still have a reaction after a vaccine, as the body recognizes the pathogen and reacts to it. But most of the time it will be very mild. The few who do have a bigger reaction are genetically predisposed for a greater reaction to vaccines. They have an immune system that may overreact. But unless a doctor advises against it, you should vaccinate.
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· 10 years ago
Okay, I need to rant here.
If your a parent that won't get your child vaccinated, you should have not had children. If your scared of them getting autism, there not. AUTISM IS FUCKING GENETIC THING, THEY WILL NOT GET IT FROM A NEEDLE FILLED WITH A THING THAT WILL PROTECT THEM FROM A DISEASE THAT HAS BEEN ERADICATED FOR OVER A HUNDRED YEAR OR SO.
Sorry for yelling, as a person with autism, it pisses me off when people tell me that they won't vaccinate thier kids because they don't want them to get autism.
Please vaccinate your kids.
Agreed! The medical practitioner that linked autism and vaccines was found to have his own greedy interests in casting a shadow on vaccinations, he fabricated the whole argument.
So if the disease has been eradicated for over a hundred years, why do we need the vaccine. It isn't around anymore, so we just put the disease that isn't bothering us in nature into our bodies to protect us from a disease that isn't bothering us in nature... doesn't make sense. I don't think my children will get autism but I want them to build their immune system naturally, through playing outside, touching stuff and eating dirt. worked so many years ago and it still works today.
We don't vaccinate against small pox anymore because it has been iradicated. But most have not. Even in 1st world countries, very deadly viruses are still present, just in significantly smaller numbers. If natural immunity were possible by letting kids eat dirt, we wouldn't need vaccines. Letting kids get dirty helps develop immunity to allergens, and bacteria, but viruses act very differently. Which is why the medical community treats them differently.
In point fact, small pox has not been fully irradicated. There are still samples that governments have. Additionally there is good likelyhood of there being residual traces of it in third world countries, similar to bubonic plague.
Very true guest, but people do not contract smallpox easily any more, due to the vaccine? Some would say so, but it is not a requirement in society to get the smallpox vaccine so I say otherwise. The most recent cases of smallpox are military personnel who mess with the vaccination area and spread it to the rest of the body.
P.S. More of just an observation, nothing aimed towards anyone, but I find it funny that anyone with positive experiences that don't utilize vaccines get quite a bit of down votes... kinda sad.
The only vaccine I'm iffy about is the flu shot. Every time I've gotten it I end up getting sick. But I know that it's keeping me from getting even sicker in the future, especially living in college dorms.
Are you just "getting sick" or are you actually coming down with the flu? Reactions to immunizations is normal, but severe ones is not. This is worth mentioning to your PHP and discussing your options. There are different flu vaccine types and it's possible that there might be a different formulation better suited to you.
There are actually people who can come down with the flu when they get the vaccine. I did when I was younger, but as I got older I stopped getting sick. My neighbor did when she was little too. It probably has some overly complicated reason lol
That sounds normal, that is the vaccine and your immune system going to work. Part of the immune response is an elevated temperature.
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Now if that changes, tell your PHP. Even if that reaction fails to manifest after a vaccination. That could be indicative of a failed immune response.
Ugh....there's si much I could say ..so ill keep it short. 1 all extremes are bad. That's the problem. 2. You can raise your kids how u want. Unfortunately some parents are coocoo and some are exposing kids to "more harm" and these kids will go to school and expose others :/
Good for you but just because it hasn't does not mean it can't or won't. And if you did contract one of these things then you could potentially pass on to a baby or an old person and kill them.
Good for you. You can thank your health for 2 things. One, a genetically good immune system. Two, the fact that you're surounded by a public who has been vaccinated, and therefore viral pathogens are not running around rampant and cannot spread. Vaccinations, and those who have gotten them, are why you still have almost no chance of getting measels or mumps. The problem starts when more and more people rely on others vaccinating. This is why after years of almost no cases of polio, there has been a huge resurgence in this paralytic and devastating virus.
No respectable doctor or medical facility should ever recommend not vaccinating. I'd be interested in their credentials, and what sources you're using for you're misinformation.
"Nope. Nope. Nope! Nope! NOPEDY NOPE NOPE."
Yes, as I said, the vaccines are responsible for it, and continue to be responsible for it.
"Also to prove your first point wrong we have the flu vaccine, which is a relatively harmless virus"
Wrong. Worldwide, influenza is responsible for 250,000 to 500,000 death per year. The people at risk are the very young or old and immunocompromised, exactly the people who benefit most from herd immunity.
"also chickenpox, pretty much harmless except that it increases likelihood of shingles when you get older..."
Sure about that? http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html
Chickenpox is the same way in many aspects...you are very unlikely to get Toxic Shock Syndrome because its main cause is bacterial such as strep or staph. Sepsis being more prominent in today's society for potential drastic complications only because bacteria has evolved to become immune to our vaccines and antibiotics, therefore disease such as pneumonia (which can cause Sepsis) become harder to fight. Encephalitis is the result of your immune system attacking your own brain when it is fighting an infection, this could potentially happen with any disease know to mankind now...you could get it from a cold... The chickenpox virus does not kill, however it can lead to your body contracting something worse.
This does not change the fact that those people would not have died had they been immunised against the flu. Try again.
"The chickenpox virus does not kill, however it can lead to your body contracting something worse."
Same point.
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People still get the flu after the vaccine because one vaccine does not protect against all of them.
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There are three types of influenza, A, B and C. Type A has 198 subtypes. Type B has two main subtypes and are identified by lineage and strain. Type C infections are mild and not thought to cause outbreaks.
The seasonal flu vaccine is formulated for what the CDC and the WHO think are going to be the most common ones that year. It also doesn't protect against illness that have flu like symptoms and are often mistaken as the flu.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm?mobile=nocontent
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A Common Cold vaccine is impossible because the common cold is an umbrella term for an illness that is caused by one of more than 200 different viruses. It's also not pandemicly fatal like the flu.
http://www.m.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes
"Rhinoviruses -- causing 10% to 40% of colds
Coronaviruses -- causing 20% of colds
Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) -- responsible for 10% of colds"
"Of the more than 30 kinds of coronaviruses, three or four infect humans."
http://www.m.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes
Also to prove that the Common Cold can cause a lot of the same things as Influenza I give you http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/common-cold/basics/complications/con-20019062 So I say to you good sir, good day
No one said we didn't know, just that there are a lot.
"Also to prove that the Common Cold can cause a lot of the same things as Influenza I give you"
Not a single one of those complications are anywhere near as severe as the flu commonly is, and they certainly don't kill as often as the flu does.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/flu/basics/complications/con-20035101
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/common-cold/basics/complications/con-20019062
Yes, the flu doesn't kill people DIRECTLY, the flu causes the complications that kill them. If they did not have the flu, they would not have died, what is it about this you fail to understand?
And again, the complications of the common cold are nowhere near as severe as those of the flu, yes there are some superficial similarities, like the similarities between T-Rex and a chicken.
EDIT: I mean parents who don't consume meat proteins in general (eggs, fish, shellfish...)
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html
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The good news, if there is any to be had in these cases, is that some of the parents are going to jail. The tragedy is that not all of them and they're not all life sentences.
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I'm sorry about the violence and hate in my first comment, it's that I'm sickened by the fact that a child has starved to death in a well-off middle-class family in a first-world country.
People who eat an omnivore diet do not need a supplement for missing nutrients or vitamins. Unless they decide to limit themselves substantially in the variety of foods they eat, no one should really ever need a vitamin pill. But to those who choose or have to or have specific medical problems, vitamins are important to health.
If your a parent that won't get your child vaccinated, you should have not had children. If your scared of them getting autism, there not. AUTISM IS FUCKING GENETIC THING, THEY WILL NOT GET IT FROM A NEEDLE FILLED WITH A THING THAT WILL PROTECT THEM FROM A DISEASE THAT HAS BEEN ERADICATED FOR OVER A HUNDRED YEAR OR SO.
Sorry for yelling, as a person with autism, it pisses me off when people tell me that they won't vaccinate thier kids because they don't want them to get autism.
Please vaccinate your kids.
P.S. More of just an observation, nothing aimed towards anyone, but I find it funny that anyone with positive experiences that don't utilize vaccines get quite a bit of down votes... kinda sad.
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Now if that changes, tell your PHP. Even if that reaction fails to manifest after a vaccination. That could be indicative of a failed immune response.
And actually, once you get vaccinated, you can not get that disease. That's the point. People still get the flu when they get vaccinated because the type of vaccine the flu uses is dead, and can degrade, as well as there are literally thousands of strains of influenza A and B. The vaccines they administer every year protect agains the 3 strains that the CDC and WHO see as being the most likely to be widespread, bases off of their research.