What do you call it when a country invades another; kills or by threat of force removes the standing goverment, religious leaders and the education system in place; forces the locals to work as cheap labor on penatly of death and uses the profit to benefit not the country they've usurped or the people therein, but the country the usurpers orginated from?
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Depending on who does it and to whom, it can be called either an invasion or colonialism.
Please stop talking about this as if it's something to be proud of. It is VILE!
Dude. Calm the fuck down. This post is meant to be humorous. Sure, it's bad, but so is taking pictures of animals and people stuck in odd and/or uncomfortable positions, as well as making fun of countries based on stereotypes. Yet we still laugh at those, because something such as a sense of humor exists. Your panties don't have to get in a backward Eldredge Knot.
And just saying, they don't normally already have a government and a society. At one point, most of the land was unclaimed. They find it, they claim it.
Wow. This ignorance is truly astounding. I can't believe it.
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Humor about people and animals stuck is not even on the same plane as this. This compares more to how Hitler invaded countries during WW2 then it compares to a man that fell of his friggen chair.
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ALL, yes ALL the countries had governing in some shape or form. They ALL had religious leaders and educational systems in place.
Here's what the Netherlands did in Indonesia when they took over:
They murdered the priests and some of the abbeys, where there were only nuns, they converted into brothels. To make life easier on the nuns they simply used them as prostitutes.
These were women that had spend their entire lives dedicated to their god and a foreign group overpowers them and rapes them for years to come.
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This is not a single incident. This sort of thing happened ALL OVER. In ever single colonised country.
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And no, I will not sit here and say it's funny to dismiss they gruesome things that happened there.
You missed the whole point. What I will say to you is that you are grouping whole countries into one person. They way you've antagonized Netherlands is rather.....not good. You make it seem like all of Netherlands is to blame. This isn't true. Rather, it was the people the had been in the invasion. The people that invade Indonesia were sick fucks. The people, not the country.
Oh, and you ignored my comment about stereotypes. This is probably because you didn't want to acknowledge that stereotypes tie into invasion. Like, for instance, because of Hitler and the Nazis, Germans are now plagued with the stereotype of being violent, racist, Jew-haters.
And just because you didn't find this funny doesn't mean others that did are "ignorant". Most of us are fully aware of what happened. Things called school and internet exist. Just because we laughed doesn't mean we don't understand-we do, but we are looking through the eyes of humor, for various reasons. You're fixed on the bad.
Hitler invaded COUNTRIES!
Already claimed land
But guess what? At some point, those countries didn't exist! And someone got the land and made it a unified society!
What you're missing is that by celebrating colonialism you're dimissing the gruesome events that made it possible.
You're calling it an invasion now, and in my opinion that's the proper term for it.
It's not something to be proud of, it's a sick part of history that I cannot believe people will actually talk about as if it was the height of their power and cultural succes. Colonialism is vile. Period.
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I have in no way made the Netherlands and its people solely to blame. I haven't done that anywhere. All I did do is use their tactics in the invasion (or colonisation) of Indonesia as an example to show how detestable colonisation truly was. If how colonisation was realised bothers you then I suggest you stay off this topic. This is the reality of colonisation and it's neither pretty nore funny. It's absolutely nothing to be proud of or boast about.
And yes, ofcourse you're well in your right to joke about anything you'd like.
But when you make a joke and boast about your (active) part in things like slavery, treatment of jews/gays in WW2 or colonialism, you can't possibly expect every one to just sit back quietly and let you speak highly of something detestable.
Make your joke. Make them as much as you like. But when you celebrate something as inhumane as colonialism you shoulnd't be surprised when someone points out the facts and says that it's a disgusting thing to support or be proud of.
Kibbles, dear, do you really believe that the countries taken over during colonisation were free of people and not used and owned?
You should read up on your history. All the countries that were colonised had governing forms. This mean they were both occupied by people and in use.
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Take North America as an example. The governing forces were tribes spread out over the lands and they held fluid to ridig borders in it.
There was no king, president or emperor, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people there were organised and self-governing.
Certain lands belonged to certain tribes. Rules and laws were differennt in each tribe and they had a way to educate themselves in that which was important to their way of living.
When The Europeans came they started taking away lands from the locals, tried to force them into submission as they'd already succesfully done in other parts of the world. But the Native Americans were the only ones that would rather die than become a slave to these usurpers and fought back tooth and nail.
I'd say I am proud of their resolve, but then the result is that they were massacred to the point of near extinction....
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You think it was just for the Europeans to kill the Native Americans for their lands?
Or do you think the Native Americans weren't "using" their lands? Or that they weren't governing themselves? Or perhaps just not governing themselves properly?
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Kibbles, I think you need to pick up a few books and start reading.
I'm not celebrating anything. I know how horrible it colonialism is. I know damn well. I'm primarily Inuit and Mexican. You know how horrible their history was? I won't explain to you, because if I do I'll start crying, and crying makes me feel pathetic. I'm not proud of it-I'm not boasting. It's repulsive, colonialism. But by making jokes about it, we are making it better-though admittedly not the best way to do so. Joking about it makes it easier to deal with. It makes the terrible things that happened easier to comprehend. I don't expect everyone to "sit back quietly and let me speak highly of something detestable" at all. But what you are doing is shoving how you feel down peoples throats. You really are. You want people to feel exactly like you-and doesn't that seem horrible? And you have no right to tell or even suggest to me to stay off this topic. It doesn't bother me. I'm not dismissing the gruesome events. I can't, not with my history.
I'm not forcing my view down peoples throat, Connor. Your reaction to my post simply showed me that my point hadn't come across well, and so I merely attempted to explain it.
After all, when I say "colonialism is vile" and the reply to that is; "if we can laugh about dogs getting stuck in the bushes then we can laugh about colonialism," yeah, I feel like some elaboration is in order.
Speaking my mind is not equal to forcing people to agree with me. Never once have I said that you need to agree or else, never have I insulted and ridiculed anyone for disagreeing with me.
Which, to be fair, Connor, is more than I can say for you. Your reply to my post was definitely ridiculing.
If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I said that "If [examples of] how colonialism was realised bothers you, then I suggest you stay off this topic."
I said that because you were so sensitive when I gave you a concrete example of what colonialism is.
You cannot trivialise colonialism by comparing it to dogs getting stuck in fences and people falling out of chairs, and get upset when facts are brought up that showcase how much more serious, gruesome and inhumane colonialism was.
If you're stomach is too weak to deal with that sort of thing, I'd say it's in your best interest to steer clear of it. But again, it was merely a suggestion. Do as you like.
It seems like it to me. Maybe you weren't trying to shove your views down peoples throats, but that's how it came of to me. And you are still ignoring me stereotypes comment-why? My first reply was rather mean, and I apologize, but I'd thought you would take it as it was meant to be-humorous. I think that because you feel so strongly about this, you aren't able to understand how we can laugh at it-and that's okay. But just because we don't feel as strongly, and can laugh at it, doesn't mean you have to assume we don't get it, or are ignorant. Like I said, we just don't feel as strongly as you. And I'm not weak to colonialism-in fact, it's a key plot point in one of my stories.
And you are still ignoring me stereotypes comment-why?
I'm ignoring you stereotypes comment because it wasn't a good argument, Connor.
You can't compare joking about how Italians eat pasta and Germans drink beer, to joking about some of the most horrendous human rights crimes the world has ever seen. It's not even close.
You are only scratching the tip of stereotypes, you know. Like what I said about Germans-they are-at least by an American audience-stereotyped as aggressive, racist, and Jew-hating, all because of Hitler and the Goths/Visigoths. Italians are stereotyped as being weak, cowardice, and prone to immediately surrendering in the event of an invasion, all because they've done so before. Stereotypes do tie into colonialism, even if not that strongly. I feel like it is a good argument, but if you don't, then alright.
Even the worst of stereotyping is still not comparable to entire cities being burned down, the women and children raped and the men and boys murdered.
The severity of the crimes are simply not comparable.
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Do you understand that even if stereotypes attribute negative charactaristics to different races, they are still considered human beings? Colonialism excluded entire races from being acknowleged as human to begin with.
The people in colonies were treated as less than human. They were cattle; dumb and unworthy of any basic human right, including autonomy.
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I'm sorry but stereotyping, however awful that is, is in no way equal to what happened during colonialism.
Yes, I get it. I wasn't trying to say that stereotypes are as bad as colonialism, I was trying to say that they are connected. And like I have said before, we do not feel as strongly as you; so therefore your points just aren't as meaningful to us. We know what happened, we know it was bad-we know. Again, we just don't feel as strongly as you. Okay?
You were the one who started the topic of colonialism-I started the topic of stereotypes. I'm not upset. I've been trying to make you stop going on about colonialism-though my ways weren't very nice, I suppose. But you don't seem to understand that we don't feel like you, and therefore all of what you are saying doesn't impact us like it does to you. We do not feel like you do, so all of the points you make aren't as effective as you seem to want them to be. I get that you are angered over what happened, and is happening, but that doesn't mean that we don't because we aren't acknowledging it like you are. Yet again, we don't feel like you, and as many points you make, that isn't going to change.
Connor, scroll up and read what happened. You ASKED me specifically to adress your comments on stereotypes and how they linked to colonialism.
You can't ask me to comment on that and then get angry with me after I do.
You can't ask me to comment on something you've said and then tell me I'm pushing my opinion. You asked me to comment, Connor.
And if you don't like my opinion, don't ask for it.
Yeah, I did, because you didn't address it, implying you didn't want to, which made me curious. I'm not angry. In fact, I'm appreciative of how much you clearly care, because colonialism is a subject that not many people give a shit about. You've definitely done research on it. However, you also called us ignorant because of how we reacted to your comment. You called me ignorant because of the casualness I expressed-I actually acknowledged it was bad, albeit probably in a too casual form-and Kibbles because of his/her
comment on unclaimed land/society and government. I've admitted twice and apologized for being rude. We may have come off as ignorant, but that was mean, and it wasn't kind to call us so just because of how we came off. I'm sorry if I've offended or hurt you, because I really do admire how you feel about colonialism, and how much you obviously know about it.
Just to clarify, I did not call you or anyone else ignorant.
The comments that were posted showed a complete lack of knowledge about this subject, and the dictionary definition of a lack of knowledge is ignorant.
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So to be clear: I was referring to the lack of knowledge shown in the posts.
If you scroll up you can see I say " This ignorance (or lack of knowledge, if you prefer that term) is astounding."
It was not aimed at people directly, nore was it meant in the casual way people throw the word around in an attempt to ridicule or demean someone.
Alright. I get it, we didn't express any actual knowledge on this, to be honest. I still feel like it was a little uncalled for, but then so was my comment. I suppose I'm ultimately the one to blame. In my opinion you didn't have to express it the way you did-calling it astounding and saying you couldn't believe it, but like I said before, I am the one to blame.
I do find it absolutely terrible that there is such little awareness about what colonialism really entailed. I find that shocking & sickening.
But I don't hold you accountable for it. So don't feel like this is an attack on you as a person or anyone else.
It's a topic that often isn't elaborated on in schools, I find that appalling.
Most of what I know I found out from reading many books on the subject & watching documentaries.
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The story about Indonesia for example came from one of the nuns that survived. The poor thing was nearing 80 when they interviewed her and was a very young girl when it happened but she still cried throughout the entire telling of her story.
I'm truly sickened how much terror and pain is ignored and swept under the rug by refusing to discuss it in clasrooms. No one knows because no one teaches it!
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I don't hold you or any or anybody else accountable for this lack of information. Schools simply don't cover it.
I know full well how colonialism is, and I agree it's horrible and vile and speaks volumes about humans. It's genuinely sickening that it's not taught in schools-why not teach us about something so bad? If we were taught about it, it would help fix the problem colonialism poses.
Mostly I don't address it because it hurts; it hurts how my family, my ancestors, were treated so terribly by other people because of feelings or different beliefs, or simply because the invaders felt like it. It hurts that my would be great uncle died as an infant because his mother didn't have enough food to supply breast milk for him. It hurts that my Inuit ancestors were forced to rename their country-which should be called Kaalallit Nunaat-under Dane rule. But, for me personally, joking about it makes it easier to cope with. It's easier to tell the history to my younger brothers in a simple, humorous fashion for now, and when they get older I'll tell them the full extent. For now, it's easier.
Well this proves that even joking about a topic brings it to public light and opens it for discussion. Not every topic can be unveiled by humor but it does bring people to a forum like this one to talk about it. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, it's done it's job of sparking conversation.
I actually laughed at your comments lihea. I live in a country that was colonised by the Dutch and I am of Dutch desent. The colonised areas had NO form of government, NO education etc. Hell, they barely had people. You do not seem to understand anyway.
Which country is that? Surinam? Then perhaps you need to look further into your own history and look at the indignous tribes that lived there before. There are a few books about this.
As for countries like Indonesia and South Africa they very much had governing systems.
"This land is your land, your land is my land, we took it from you, it was easy"
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Depending on who does it and to whom, it can be called either an invasion or colonialism.
Please stop talking about this as if it's something to be proud of. It is VILE!
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Humor about people and animals stuck is not even on the same plane as this. This compares more to how Hitler invaded countries during WW2 then it compares to a man that fell of his friggen chair.
.
ALL, yes ALL the countries had governing in some shape or form. They ALL had religious leaders and educational systems in place.
Here's what the Netherlands did in Indonesia when they took over:
They murdered the priests and some of the abbeys, where there were only nuns, they converted into brothels. To make life easier on the nuns they simply used them as prostitutes.
These were women that had spend their entire lives dedicated to their god and a foreign group overpowers them and rapes them for years to come.
.
This is not a single incident. This sort of thing happened ALL OVER. In ever single colonised country.
.
And no, I will not sit here and say it's funny to dismiss they gruesome things that happened there.
Oh, and you ignored my comment about stereotypes. This is probably because you didn't want to acknowledge that stereotypes tie into invasion. Like, for instance, because of Hitler and the Nazis, Germans are now plagued with the stereotype of being violent, racist, Jew-haters.
And just because you didn't find this funny doesn't mean others that did are "ignorant". Most of us are fully aware of what happened. Things called school and internet exist. Just because we laughed doesn't mean we don't understand-we do, but we are looking through the eyes of humor, for various reasons. You're fixed on the bad.
Already claimed land
But guess what? At some point, those countries didn't exist! And someone got the land and made it a unified society!
You're calling it an invasion now, and in my opinion that's the proper term for it.
It's not something to be proud of, it's a sick part of history that I cannot believe people will actually talk about as if it was the height of their power and cultural succes. Colonialism is vile. Period.
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I have in no way made the Netherlands and its people solely to blame. I haven't done that anywhere. All I did do is use their tactics in the invasion (or colonisation) of Indonesia as an example to show how detestable colonisation truly was. If how colonisation was realised bothers you then I suggest you stay off this topic. This is the reality of colonisation and it's neither pretty nore funny. It's absolutely nothing to be proud of or boast about.
But when you make a joke and boast about your (active) part in things like slavery, treatment of jews/gays in WW2 or colonialism, you can't possibly expect every one to just sit back quietly and let you speak highly of something detestable.
Make your joke. Make them as much as you like. But when you celebrate something as inhumane as colonialism you shoulnd't be surprised when someone points out the facts and says that it's a disgusting thing to support or be proud of.
You should read up on your history. All the countries that were colonised had governing forms. This mean they were both occupied by people and in use.
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Take North America as an example. The governing forces were tribes spread out over the lands and they held fluid to ridig borders in it.
There was no king, president or emperor, but that doesn't take away from the fact that people there were organised and self-governing.
Certain lands belonged to certain tribes. Rules and laws were differennt in each tribe and they had a way to educate themselves in that which was important to their way of living.
I'd say I am proud of their resolve, but then the result is that they were massacred to the point of near extinction....
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You think it was just for the Europeans to kill the Native Americans for their lands?
Or do you think the Native Americans weren't "using" their lands? Or that they weren't governing themselves? Or perhaps just not governing themselves properly?
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Kibbles, I think you need to pick up a few books and start reading.
After all, when I say "colonialism is vile" and the reply to that is; "if we can laugh about dogs getting stuck in the bushes then we can laugh about colonialism," yeah, I feel like some elaboration is in order.
Speaking my mind is not equal to forcing people to agree with me. Never once have I said that you need to agree or else, never have I insulted and ridiculed anyone for disagreeing with me.
Which, to be fair, Connor, is more than I can say for you. Your reply to my post was definitely ridiculing.
I said that because you were so sensitive when I gave you a concrete example of what colonialism is.
You cannot trivialise colonialism by comparing it to dogs getting stuck in fences and people falling out of chairs, and get upset when facts are brought up that showcase how much more serious, gruesome and inhumane colonialism was.
If you're stomach is too weak to deal with that sort of thing, I'd say it's in your best interest to steer clear of it. But again, it was merely a suggestion. Do as you like.
And you are still ignoring me stereotypes comment-why?
You can't compare joking about how Italians eat pasta and Germans drink beer, to joking about some of the most horrendous human rights crimes the world has ever seen. It's not even close.
The severity of the crimes are simply not comparable.
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Do you understand that even if stereotypes attribute negative charactaristics to different races, they are still considered human beings? Colonialism excluded entire races from being acknowleged as human to begin with.
The people in colonies were treated as less than human. They were cattle; dumb and unworthy of any basic human right, including autonomy.
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I'm sorry but stereotyping, however awful that is, is in no way equal to what happened during colonialism.
You started us on the topic of stereotypes and colonialism, don't you remember?
Why are you getting upset about it now?
You can't ask me to comment on that and then get angry with me after I do.
You can't ask me to comment on something you've said and then tell me I'm pushing my opinion. You asked me to comment, Connor.
And if you don't like my opinion, don't ask for it.
comment on unclaimed land/society and government. I've admitted twice and apologized for being rude. We may have come off as ignorant, but that was mean, and it wasn't kind to call us so just because of how we came off. I'm sorry if I've offended or hurt you, because I really do admire how you feel about colonialism, and how much you obviously know about it.
The comments that were posted showed a complete lack of knowledge about this subject, and the dictionary definition of a lack of knowledge is ignorant.
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So to be clear: I was referring to the lack of knowledge shown in the posts.
If you scroll up you can see I say " This ignorance (or lack of knowledge, if you prefer that term) is astounding."
It was not aimed at people directly, nore was it meant in the casual way people throw the word around in an attempt to ridicule or demean someone.
But I don't hold you accountable for it. So don't feel like this is an attack on you as a person or anyone else.
It's a topic that often isn't elaborated on in schools, I find that appalling.
Most of what I know I found out from reading many books on the subject & watching documentaries.
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The story about Indonesia for example came from one of the nuns that survived. The poor thing was nearing 80 when they interviewed her and was a very young girl when it happened but she still cried throughout the entire telling of her story.
I'm truly sickened how much terror and pain is ignored and swept under the rug by refusing to discuss it in clasrooms. No one knows because no one teaches it!
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I don't hold you or any or anybody else accountable for this lack of information. Schools simply don't cover it.
Mostly I don't address it because it hurts; it hurts how my family, my ancestors, were treated so terribly by other people because of feelings or different beliefs, or simply because the invaders felt like it. It hurts that my would be great uncle died as an infant because his mother didn't have enough food to supply breast milk for him. It hurts that my Inuit ancestors were forced to rename their country-which should be called Kaalallit Nunaat-under Dane rule. But, for me personally, joking about it makes it easier to cope with. It's easier to tell the history to my younger brothers in a simple, humorous fashion for now, and when they get older I'll tell them the full extent. For now, it's easier.
As for countries like Indonesia and South Africa they very much had governing systems.