You can get food poisoning from many foods you eat, plus eating is vital to living. If you have sex (which is not vital to us living as individuals) you should understand the risks that you could get pregnant regardless of what protection you use. If you don't want a child don't have sex. Our society has turned sex into a leisurely activity in a way, but it's sole purpose is to create children, so you shouldn't be having sex if you aren't ready for the responsibilities of a child
sex is a leisurely activity, hence why there’s body parts like the clitoris. Having a child is by no means it’s sole purpose, it’s about human interaction and connections.
I'll politely disagree mickeymouse. My viewpoint comes from my Christian beliefs that sex should be within the confines of marriage. So I guess it could be a leisurely activity but regardless I believe it should not be a leisurely activity for those who are not married. It's an unpopular opinion and I'm ok with that I don't need everyone to agree with me.
Very true. We should all just live our own way on this. There’s no reason to fight. Men and women who are pro life simply need not have abortions. People can decide for themselves what is and isn’t right for them, so long as there is access in the community to allow people discreet and safe options, utilizing them is up to individual beliefs.
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· 6 years ago
@mickymouse I agree with you. Sex is more than just for making babies, it's a physical interaction between two or more people that brings pleasure to all parties involved as well as a spiritual and mental connection. Being a Christian myself I understand people wanting to wait for marriage first but as a human being I'd never recommend it. There is such a thing as sexual compatibility and it's just as important to find the person you're sexually compatible with as to find your soul mate. I believe personally that sex should be in a relationship but people have the freedom to do as they please.
If you're not ready for children then yes take precautions like going on contraceptives and using condoms but accidents happen. Most babies that are born are not planned. If you get pregnant and don't want to keep it then there's absolutely no shame in getting an abortion. It's your choice, don't let anyone shame you over it with their concept of morals and hypocrisy.
I'm sorry guest_ but I also disagree that there's no need to fight. I believe abortion is murder and needs to be made illegal. It would be like saying just because I don't murder someone it's ok for other people to. Again it's our own personal beliefs on whether or not it's murder but I think it is, and that it should be treated as such under the law and I will absolutely fight for that. And to Peachy, it's not my place to judge you, but God is quite clear that sex should remain within the confines of marriage, not just a relationship.
By definition it is quite literally not murder in most places. Murder is the unlawful killing of... where legal abortion isn’t murder by any criteria. So your example doesn’t hold any ground. You’re comparing a legal act and an illegal act. Now- let us discuss killing- the act of terminating a life. (We will come back to that most likely.) As the law exists killing is legal, you can kill or not kill within the law as your morals allow. Legal killing in self defense, legal killing in combat, legal killing in service of the law, legal killing as punishment for crimes, legal killing through denial or removal of life saving measures to the elderly, sick, or injured. It is your option within the law to follow your moral compass on these issues where killing has been found legal as a benefit to society. Your moral stance doesn’t factor in that morals are subjective and the law is designed to allow the greatest freedom in moral interpretation while protecting the public interest.
@meatball2012 the Bible (which was written by humans not by God himself) also says you shouldn't wear mixed clothing (Leviticus 19:19), not to get tattoos (Leviticus 19:28), getting remarried after divorce (Mark 10:11–12), not to let women speak in church (1 Corinthians 14:34), and the list goes on and on, so what else are you going to cherry pick? I was raised and baptized Catholic but once I found out how cherry picked the bible was, I could not take any part of the religion seriously. People who make law based on the religion they follow and impose it onto others are terrible people. Not everyone follows a religion and no one should be told that "abortion is wrong because my god said so" - that is no argument for making it illegal. Making abortion illegal may make you feel good inside, but it won't stop it. Take a look at South America, China, etc., illegal abortions are quite common. All you do by making it illegal is making it harder to get and done by untrained people.
A moral argument does not show how this is harmful to the public interest, or more harmful than not allowing safe legal abortions to those interested. Now on definitions- where do you personally draw the line on murder to protect life? How far may the law go to ensure that? Who will go to jail when a brain dead husband is taken off life support because his family can’t afford the $1000 a day in treatment for another 30 years? Murdered yes? Who will pass the laws and enforce that pregnant women are eating properly and avoiding drugs and drink and activities that could harm their fetus? Who will routinely check women of age to ensure they aren’t hiding a pregnancy so they can abort in the shadows? Do you volunteer to inspect the ex mothers after miscarriages to ensure it was natural and not induced? Where does the sanctity of life become too big a problem or too inconvenient to call it murder? Do you draw the line at abortion, or is there more wasted life in society to fight?
It wouldn't be the mother punished for the abortion, but rather the one performing the abortion. And I choose to follow the teachings of Christ, as his coming and great sacrifice made it so much of the old testsment is null. I made a mistake by calling it murder, but I believe it should be made illegal so that it can be classified as murder. If a woman's life is endangered by the pregnancy I can support having it aborted but in no other circumstance can I support the termination of an innocent life due to convenience or irresponsible actions. You could argue that rape could also be a circumstance and that's a gray area for me, however my father was a police officer for over 30 years before he retired and worked at a high school. There were 3 cases in his 10 years working there where a girl falsely claimed she was raped by a boy and since there was no physical evidence they took her word for it. All 3 of those boys were innocent, all 3 of them went to jail, and their lives were ruined.
So we can't always believe people who claim to be raped however terribly awful that sounds because in no way do I support rapists and I believe they should be imprisoned for life if caught but there needs to be proof because I've seen lives ruined by false accusations.
And to elaborate on those cases. It was 3 different girls, and they admitted to making the story up because of their guilt and the 3 boys were released but not until a few months afterwards and it caused 2 of them to lose scholarships.
Still haven't given an actual reason to make it illegal besides your religion. Public policy should not be built upon any religion.
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· 6 years ago
"God is also clear that the baby isn't a person until it can move in the womb, so maybe read the bible before you cite it"
literally never heard that before. Do you have a verse for me to look up?
@meatball2012- if we base objection to abortion on the teachings of Christ, where does Christ say that it is ok to abort a child when the mother is in danger? Where does Christ say it’s ok to let a loved one die because of the financial costs of keeping them alive versus quality of life? Where does Christ condone mercy killings? Where does Christ say that a mother aborting a child is wrong? If we allow abortion for rape- how do we as you say- prove that it was actual rape and not someone claiming rape to get an abortion? Do we require a conviction? Does that mean increased danger that in order to obtain an abortion innocent men may be accused? Or what if cases where rape victims don’t want their rape to be public knowledge? Does religious belief trump a persons rights to privacy? What if there is a serious danger to them should it come out in public? Would Christ condone forcing a rape victim to publicly live their trauma, and be scrutinized on it? .....
What if they don’t believe in Christ? Is it any more right to force them to believe as it would be to force you to not believe or convert to the laws of Orthodox Judaism? Why does anyone’s life have to be ruined at all “by false allegations” if the right to an abortion and a victims rights in rape are kept separate? What if there isn’t “concrete” proof of rape but they maintain they were raped and it’s just one word against the other? Should they both be forced to try and confront the rapist even if they don’t want to or know they can’t win just to have any chance of being denied an abortion? In a perfect world perhaps complete transparency in our lives makes sense- but from surprises to resistance of tyrant many noble reasons for secrecy exist. If you’re hoping for a perfect world- you have nothing to fear, in your perfect world no one would ever feel the need for an abortion and unwanted pregnancy wouldn’t happen. In the real world we are faced with complexities and differing views
Believe as you like but don’t force your beliefs on others. There are those who will never willingly abide and so long as we refuse to allow people their ways where it doesn’t harm us or society we will be faced with violence as where two irreconcilable views meet there is either compromise or one must be subjugated or destroyed if there are those who will not be converted in their way of thinking.
@tj: exodus 21:22-23 “When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other misfortune ensues, the one responsible shall be fined as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on judges’ reckoning. But if other misfortune ensues, the penalty shall be life for life.”
Genesis 2:7- He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”
A fully formed man- Adam, was not alive until he drew his first breath.
Here’s god doing an abortion on his own in numbers 5:22-
"May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."
We know that the death penalty is prescribed many places in the Bible, and god commands against murder, not killing. We know that god has designed nature’s so that without medical aid about 1/4-1/3 of pregnancies self abort in the first trimester and a higher fraction will not be viable by birth.
@ tj- Jeremiah 1:5 is often misquoted against abortion but simply states that god is omnipotent and knows all people and has planed for you before your birth and long after your death. Several psalms are similarly used to speak against abortion but the Bible NEVER once addresses abortion being wrong through direct mention. It is Jewish holy law that until 40 days a fetus is merely a fluid and not a human, this is likewise based in biblical facts. Abortion may not sit right with you, and that’s your business. But there’s no evidence clearly against it in the Bible, and several passages I left out where it’s mentioned that breath=life. Interpret as you will but it takes a lot less stretching to turn those into literal interpretations than to create our own unsupported links between one instance of an unrelated mention in the Bible and the idea abortion is wrong. Other people don’t need to suffer because we want to pass off our beliefs as the word of god.
I'd love to see a pro-life pregnant women come to wherever this is and make that lady shut up. Regardless of what you think, her argument just makes no sense and I don't understand why the left doesn't realize there's a large population of women who are pro-life. It's just a lame response to the man's poster
Pretty sure they’re aware of the proportions. It just seems that when there is a very strong split on both sides then they both deserve to be heard in a civilised manner. This has happened in a number of countries and laws have been put in place that should be respected and reviewed regularly.
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Personal opinion of mine is that one person has no right to say whether the unconscious mass of cells in somebody else’s body is left to develop or be aborted. That is purely the females choice. Once those cells gain consciousness then abortion is (in 99% of circumstances) illegal, this makes sense to me.
@meatball2012- they aren’t saying no pregnant woman can be pro life. They’re saying that it’s easier to be pro life if you aren’t pregnant. To your example of bringing a pro life pregnant woman- it isn’t apt. To work you’d need several women representing several scenarios and you’d need to know what was in their mind. Take a deeply religious pro life woman who was raped, a pro life teen who got drunk and is pregnant and who’s husband will leave her or beat her for it, or her family will shame her and abandon her, or her dreams will be ruined. She may not decide to have an abortion but will she consider it? Will she be conflicted and challenged? Her ultimate views may or may not change but it’s likely that she may find it hard to remain pro life and have to look deeper at the issue and cinsider abortion as an option. Hence the statement is logical that it is easier to be pro life if you aren’t the one with a baby under unknown circumstances. It’s at least as logical as the other sign...
... since we can’t ask terminates fetuses if they are pro choice or not, and the number of people I’ve heard say they wish they were dead or never born with conviction, and suicide rates and other indicators support the idea some people may well support the idea of themselves being terminated before birth.
First, the US (I'm assuming this is from the US) needs to provide PROPER sex ed so people know about pregnancy, STI's, etc. Education makes a difference. Secondly, make contraception easy/low and no cost to obtain (depending on the financial situation of the person). Thirdly, making abortions illegal doen't stop them from happening - look at South America or China for example. Keep abortions safe, legal, and accessible. If you don't want one, don't get one - simple.
What if we found a middle ground. intense bias and prejudice is in my opinion not the most effective means of evolving humanity and achieving a more adaptive and well rounded society.
New idea what if we spliced the dna of the embryo to just produce functional brain components to then be used as processors for computers. No computer can out process a brain so why not use it for better technology. Also this would be helpful for science as to learn more about the human brain.
The only problem I have with abortion is the fact it can be done without even requiring the father to be notified. I mean fuck if you're not gonna have the guy be part of the decision making process at least tell him it's happening.
I'm not talking about anything regulated or required by law. I just feel in pregnancy caused by consensual sex the father has a right to at least know the abortion is taking place. In a health relationship a discussion would have most likely already happened far before the point an abortion is happening. Even if it's just texting your ex that it's taking place he should be told. Abuse and rape are an entirely different case. I barely support rapists and abusers right to live much less anything else.
Or retribution. And what if the woman says she doesn’t know who the dad is? There’s no practical way to verify that pre procedure. There’s one way to avoid this though and it doesn’t require a law. If a man wants to be notified about his girl aborting their fetus, he simply mustn’t stick his baby maker near a woman he can’t trust or doesn’t know that well. Easier said than done I know- but when you do stupid shit you have stupid problems.
@bethorien- sorry. I started but didn’t finish until after your post so didn’t see it until now. I agree that in most cases the courteous thing to do would be to say something. But I also understand there are many reasons a woman wouldn’t want to tell and shouldn’t be expected to. If her mind is made up she doesn’t need to explain it to anyone, nor if she’s already struggled with the choice does she need to worry about the pleas or condemnation of a partner who can’t do anything to stop her- not to mention the risk they might act in anger at the news and powerlessness and endanger her. Ultimately knowing before hand does nothing for the man. As I said before- if you can’t trust her to tell you, and you don’t see eye to eye on kids, you have fundamental problems. I never worry about these things in my relationships because I don’t allow commitment beyond what they’ve earned and I am willing to risk. To know another you must know yourself.
Ah yes, the right wing, the people who claim that they are for "facts not feelings" and in the next breath use an emotionally driven narrative that flushing out a few days old bunch of cells is literally murder.
Hey. That’s not even remotely fair. You're leaving out the ones who aren’t even making an emotional argument, but simply claiming that a diverse mix of people’s should follow the beliefs that they personally hold were handed to them by a higher power through a book which doesn’t actually specifically mention anything on the subject even though historical evidence and common sense tells us that methods existed at the time to terminate pregnancies. That’s not fair to people simply following a fundamentalist narrative to exclude them like that.
I'm not even a little bit religious, but I also believe that a baby is a baby once the heart starts beating and that abortion is wrong and taking a human life. So it's not entirely a religious argument or people forcing their religious beliefs on others.
The opposite is also true, those who are pro-abortion (pro-choice doesn't exist, you either condone other's killing babies, or you don't) are also guilty of forcing their beliefs on those who don't believe the same way.
Your reply is a little confusing. Above you state abortion is wrong as once the heart beats it is taking a human life, but below you specify the issue isn’t about choice or life- it is only about killing babies. I’ll need that clarified to respond completely. But based on what I see here I wonder where the indignation is towards 60+ years of war and an industrial complex built on blood of dead adults and children? Do you turn away your paycheck, or refuse to own land because of the human cost? What do you do for the men and women dying every day from exploitation and economic servitude to provide cheap goods? I think you have a choice no? You CAN cut off all ties to systems and benefits reaped through death, or you can choose what works best to the life you are trying to live. So why do you get a choice in wether a worker in Bangladesh is crushed to death or not and a pregnant woman is a mirderer? She didn’t kill any baby anymore than you killed that worker.
*bracing myself for downvotes*
It always completely baffles me how religion gets dragged into abortion discussions. Oh, yes, those dirty, rotten Christians trying to save the babies, how horrible of them. Since when did "I believe in Jesus" and "Let's not kill babies, kay?" become synonymous? I'm pretty sure all people of any religion (or lack thereof) can agree that killing babies is, you know, a pretty big no-no (unless you're a part of some religion that practices child sacrifice or something...??). I happen to be Christian, but that has nothing to do with why I'm pro-life. I'm pro-life because babies are cute. Like, they're little balls of cutesy smiles and wonder. Who the heck says, "I'm going to be on the team that supports killing these tiny, precious bundles of joy :D "
HOW DARE YOU?! shouts some pro-choicer.
Well, I dare because I'm "that exception case" that everyone talks about. I was a virgin, and I was raped and became pregnant. Many of my very good friends
Continued...
Many of my very good friends told me I should get an abortion. I never considered it for a second because I have no right to take another's life. I now have a 3-year-old daughter that I love more than anything else in the world. If what happened to me happened to any number of other women, this innocent child would be dead right now. So to anyone who says that a woman has the right to choose whether or not to kill her baby based on convenience or circumstance, how dare YOU. A child is not responsible for the way that it came about, and it is not aware of whether or not it is convenient. The baby's choice is that it wants to live, and it is horrifying that people think they can disregard the innocent's choice.
And suddenly little baby timmy comes out into a screeching world of poverty where his single mother Jane, fifteen years old, is kicked out by her parents because she's a dirty fucking whore and then Jane gets into drugs and shit because she's in a shitty place and then Timmy grows up to be basically a thug because all he knows how to do is drugs and gangbang because he was never taught any better.
Now obviously there's more than a few things wrong with this picture, most of which are only tangentially related to abortion, but I think everyone's life would be better off if Timmy didn't exist. Even Timmy's would be better dead than growing up like this.
The thing is not everyone will react the same way you did. To you the baby was something you can bare having. To another rape victim maybe its a reminder of what happened and they cannot overcome that. Would you want to let the infant live a blamed life? And you cant say they can get adopted either. Look at the rate of adoptions around the world. Places are still full and the amount of paperwork and difficulties you have to go through to adopt at all is enough to turn people away. Every case wont be the same. If you allow them to choose to keep the baby or not depending on circumstances you allow an infant a better life instead of condemning them to one that might be worse for them.
@1000thghost- religion doesn’t usually get brought to the abortion debate until someone religious cites religion as why abortion isn’t ok- as seen in much earlier comments to this thread. I’m glad you kept to your morals and it turned out alright. Let’s count all the billionaires who dropped out of college and life went great. Is your advice to everyone then that dropping out of college is best, or would your advice to those billionaires be to not have pursued their career and finished school? What works for you, what you believe- those aren’t the beliefs of everyone. As for “killing babies” we first must agree what a baby is. Judaism doesn’t consider it a baby for 40 days after it’s born. Science is a bit conflicted. The Bible is also a little vague as to when it is a human life. Your argument is that because you chose to keep your baby other women shouldn’t have a choice? Your argument is how dare anyone assume that a woman can be trusted to make a moral decision on her own?
@1000thghost how does it baffle you religion gets pulled into abortion when religious groups push themselves into it? They can have their beliefs silently - they don't have to picket planned parenthood (which provides more than abortion services), attack people who provide abortions, or scare people away by saying they are going to hell or lie and say it's going to make them unable to ever have kids again. They're not killing babies either - you can miscarry before you even know you were pregnant. Do you want to consider that killing babies too when a group of cell the size of a pea leaves your body and you don't even know? How dare you scold women for making the decision that's right for them. It's great that you wanted to keep the baby that was forced on you, but others shouldn't have to because you think your way is right, hence why the right to choose what you want without infringing on another persons right is so important.
How dare you apply your morality and circumstances to other people unilaterally. How dare you think so little of your fellow man as to not trust them. Did god himself not put the apple in the garden of eden? Good isn’t good if bad isn’t a choice is it? Who are you to apply universal truth? How dare you come from a position of privilege and take down on those who weren’t as lucky as you. This is why people beat up on religion. People like you come from the high horse and spout off trying to drag people by the neck to your way. If you want to change hearts and minds you must show examples and compassion and not try to force people to drink from your cup. The Bible itself shows the progression of an angry vengeful god to one of compassion, forgiveness, and leading by the example of his flesh and blood son sent to die to teach people the way. To send the message that they didn’t have to follow, that Jesus wouldn’t bring armies against them but they would bring damnation on themselves.
So follow the advice in the book and have whatever opinion you want, but treat human beings with more respect and compassion than trying to apply your life to theirs. Forgive them for their mistakes and instead of trying to force your way show people it is better. Judgmental and hostile tirades about baby killers and how wrong they are for what may be the hardest thing they’ve ever done won’t go as far as a shoulder, a sympathetic ear, and maybe take some of that love for your child and extend it to your fellow humans. You were blessed to not have to go through what you could have and lived with that choice and some aren’t, and you come here and spit in their faces, kick those already down. How dare you?
Wow, ganging up on a lady who was raped and brave enough to keep her kid (and brave enough to share her story). Way to keep it classy, guys.
@1000thghost You've gotta love how perfectly you pegged their responses. Downvotes and pro-choicers shouting how dare you at you! There's also offensive name calling and scrambling to find arguments for why murdering babies is sometimes justifiable. Predictable.
You clearly have a passion for "saving the babies" and a heart of gold. God bless you and your little daughter, and I hope you both have a great Thursday :)
@islandeyes- if you actually read you might see your straw men for what they are. She shared HER story, and I said I’m glad for HER. not everyone is her, and here you are trying to shame other people for belittling someone who’s been through so much, yet if you read my reply that is exactly what I’m upset at. Other people have gone through things, terrible things, and to shame them for not making the same choice is disgusting.
Secondly- trauma- any trauma including rape, should be respected and met with fair compassion and understanding. It is not however a get out of jail free card that allows one to do or say anything they want and then hide behind the badge of a wounded soul or a heroic figure. She has been through some hard times in life and I would not and have not tried to diminish her personal experience. Surviving a gunshot doesn’t make you an expert surgeon nor a qualified advisor on weapons, it makes you a survivor and what worked for you may not work for others.
guest_, if you firmly believed, with every piece of your mind, that something was wrong, and horrible, how could you not insert yourself into the debate? Standing on the sidelines is the same as condoning it. It's not people being busybodies and wanting to control others, it people who are standing up for an innocent's right to live. You can pontificate and write paragraphs all you like, but the reality is that they are just as passionate about their convictions as you are but it's not about the woman, it's about the baby.
@tjg- I don’t think the baby is the issue here. Your own earlier post makes pretty obvious that people generally don’t enjoy the idea. Do you believe that most women skip to the abortion clinic and laugh over drinks high giving friends after leaving? For most people it’s a hard and difficult choice that they only make when they feel there’s no other option. That they’ve looked at their life and decided that as unpleasant a choice it is, they will make it. You say that when you feel strongly about something that standing on the sidelines is as bad as pulling the trigger yourself and yet you don’t address any of the examples I have of how you yourself and I too do so every day knowingly and willingly. I don’t hear or see you taking a stand against any of those things personally and yet you’d tell others they don’t have the right to be as guilty as you are? That is literally the definition of hypocrisy. By your own philosophy your hands are just as bloody and you have no ground to stand
But as @i_ says: seeing the other side is important. I can’t tell you what to think is right or wrong, but I can tell you that a global society, a mixed society is one where things we personally may not agree with happen. The world isn’t about what you think is right for other people, it’s about giving people the rights to choose for themselves as much as possible. Would you require a family to be legally bound to keep a brain dead relative on life support for 30+ years at ruination for the love of life? Would you deny a person the right to drive a vehicle because the pollution harms others? Where does your love of life take a backseat to your love of self? Think whatever you want but don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
You know what really grinds my gears. When people say it's not killing because it's a fetus not a baby. Like if you wait a couple weeks what to you thinking it's going to become a monkey???
Can we just let whoever is havung the issue choose what to do? If you want to keep the baby, okay. If you don't then okay. The rates of abortions will go down if people are educated and given proper means of having safe sex. It sound simple but its hard to execute. Instead of screaming pro life or pro choice can we have pro update of sex ed? My friend knew a guy who knocked up his gf because he thought a condom on a finger can prevent pregnancies. Grante the gf was dumb tok for not realising he wasnt putting the condom on right either.
Tell em! If you don’t want kids why are you getting raped? If you didn’t want kids why did you get drunk because you didn’t realize how alcohol would effect you and got in over your head? If you want kids with your first love who tells you he’ll always be there for you and then leaves and sleeps with someone else and now you have no way to care for yourself and will be kicked out and beat by your parents don’t have sex! If you want kids but then have a baby that is likely to kill you in birth, or likely to be born effectively brain dead or in constant pain don’t have sex! If you didn’t want kids but didn’t have adequate sexual education or were tricked into unsafe sex by someone you trust you shouldn’t have had sex! If the condom broke, if they said they were using protection but lied, If you... etc. yeah. It’s real simple! Build a time machine like everyone else and undo your mistakes that way, or be like guest and be perfect and never make mistakes.
Abortions due to rape are a minuscule number of the millions of babies killed. Getting drunk and in over your head is a matter of responsibility, if you did it, why are you now allowed to murder someone who is the result of your bad decision? If you're still living with your parents and they'll beat you and kick you out, it doesn't matter if he's your first love, if he is he'll wait. Again, medical issues for either mother or child are a minuscule number of the total abortions. If you were tricked into unsafe sex, then again, it's a matter of responsibility, why would you put your future in someone else's hands?
The only plausible excuse would be if having that baby is going to kill the mother.
It's not a man vs woman thing, it's a difference between those who think that a baby is a person before he or she is born, and those who think something else. If you see a person being murdered, are you not allowed to say anything because you have never murdered someone?
Abortion is murder. Idc what you say. Idc what you think. Its murder and anyone okay with it needs to be arrested and be put away from the rest of society. Your murdering the most innocent thing in the world because you couldnt keep it in your dang pants. Not the babies fault for you being an idiot!. If you had an abortion and dont regret it you are lying to yourself to make your self feel better about killing a BABY! Having an abortion is the EXACT same thing as first degree murder.
Repent, live for God and you will be forgiven. God loves you and wants you to choose Him. He WILL forgive you. Just repent. God LOVES you.
And Lo! ! God does speak! And what does god have to say on such earthly matters? God says this: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also ufor the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them....
So @guest- you are in rebellion and must repent! Your God has placed the United States Government in charge, and said that it’s laws are to be held as if they were gods laws. Your taxes are to fund planned parenthood. It is not your place to rebel against the laws of the United States- since god has put these people in power and given them authority it is god they must answer to if they abuse that authority. We see it time again in the Bible. The Hebrews could have risen up against their unjust and unchristian masters- especially with gods help. But no. God said to them to leave Egypt, and god dealt with the Pharos. So if you don’t like the law of the land- exodus to somewhere else and leave people here alone to live in subjection to the laws. You and Satan can have your rebellion. Don’t corrupt these good folks living under gods wisdom.
no. a fetus doesn't care if it is aborted or not, it's just cells. every woman has the right to chose for herself. how do people not get this? a man has no say in it.
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· 6 years ago
My genitals have no bearing on whether abortion is wrong
I don’t know why the dv. I upvotes because you are right. Whatever genitals you have shouldn’t influence the morality of the fact that women have the right to choose for themselves. Even men can know that without needing to fully experience the many reasons a woman may choose abortion. I won’t dv you. I support your pro choice stance tj.
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· 6 years ago
Pro choice of opinion, but I'd hardly call myself pro choice.
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· 6 years ago
No but it means you don't get a say on what women can and can't do with their bodies
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· 6 years ago
If you don't own a gun you don't get a say in gun control then. I'm glad we've come to this agreement.
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· 6 years ago
Gun control effects EVERYONE, abortion doesn't. Sorry but you must be really stupid to think otherwise. Women have the right to choose what happens with their own bodies and it doesn't effect anyone but THEM themselves whereas gun control effects millions of people in the country in the present and in the future. Dumbass.
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· 6 years ago
Ahh, I love the smell of tolerance in the morning.
Not an immigrant, no opinion on immigration.
Not a police officer, on opinion on policing.
Not a corporation, no opinion on Citizens United.
Not a politician, no opinion on political transparency.
Funny how my rights are perfectly fine to infringe upon, but yours are off limits.
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· 6 years ago
No matter what you think of me or my opinions, surely you must admit that your logic here is flimsy at best.
There’s a dual lesson to be learned. I understand these are charged and multifaceted issues and people get emotional, but there’s no reason to be disrespectful when someone is expressing their opinion civilly. That’s a cornerstone of facism. It’s easy to support facism when those views align with your own. The part of pro choice people forget is the choice part- that individuals may choose to not get or condone abortion at their discretion. It’s important that pro choice be about rights. Much like a problem that faced modern feminism- a fight to give women the right to choose a path and then women shaming women over a decision to choose to be home makers or stay at home moms. The same applies here. Every woman I know who’s had an abortion has been effected by it. It wasn’t easy for any of them. But they did what they thought best and should have the right to do so. By the same token limiting access to be able to get a safe and legal abortion is not right either.
@tj thank you. I as well love that you can be reasonable and respectful in discussing beliefs, and that even where we disagree you bring intelligence to your stances.
There is no right to abortion in the Constitution. There is, however, a right to keep and bear arms. So the argument that someone is infringing on a woman's "right" is a fallacy.
The idea that no one should be able to tell her what to do with her body is also a fallacy, as soon as that baby started growing, it stopped being just her body. No one should be able to tell a woman when to have sex, or how to prevent it, however, the moment of choice should be before the sex, not before the birth.
@tjg- the constitution gives rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Within the scope of these broad rights are many rights the constitution doesn’t explicitly spell out such as having sex, having children, or being married. Where challenges occur the courts make a decision as to the scope of that right. Roe v. Wade established that much like guns, abortions are protected by the constitution but are subject to state regulation. Furthermore your claim a woman has the right to decide to have sex also doesn’t happen to be stated in the constitution beyond within the scope of broader rights, and ignores when a baby is made but a woman didn’t choose to have sex such as rape. Lastly, the constitution and your argument hinges on the word life. Science doesn’t consider a baby a life any more than a tumor up to a certain point, and I’m sure you’re ok removing those? Religion is less clear but by your explicit stance argument never equates abortion to murder directly either.
@guest- if we killed people for having ideas we didn’t agree with or like, we Would be going against the very idea of freedom. If a belief cannot be challenged, if it cannot bear scrutiny under examination then it is likely not a belief worth having. When people bring questions to the table it’s often the best way to affirm we are still on the right path. Tjg is entitled to believe whatever they like. I can believe my car is alive and they can believe a zygote is too. So long as we don’t push our personal morals on others then what is left is simply conversations to gain and maybe change perspective, which such statements as yours are not constructive to.
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Edited 6 years ago
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· 6 years ago
@guest_. Uh, reread my comments, I don't recall anything about my claim a woman has a right to decide to have sex. In fact, I haven't actually made any pro-life arguments. All I did was point out how logically unsound certain pro-choice arguments were, and ask for information.
I appreciate that anyone to the left of me can make an argument on why what guest said was wrong, so thanks for that.
That said, I think I'll add my perspective on that.
@tj- as per your later comments I see that @tjg was the poster. I apologize for the mistaken identity. I’ll comment below. you stated that “no one should be able to tell a woman to have sex or... prevent it...” I was pointing out that while that is a fundamental human right it is not explicitly stated in the constitution.
@tj- thank you. Apologies. I got mixed about on this one. I’ve edited my posts (I think I got them all) to take you out more or less except where I needed to leave it in so that this part would make sense in posterity.
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· 6 years ago
All forgiven fam. I knew what I said, but if there was someone named "guesst_" or some variation I might have gotten confused too. Life happens.
Lol. That’s what really puts the egg on my face. People always confuse me with “guest” and I give them a hard time on occasion for fun- even though I knew it was likely when I chose the name. Here I am missing the “g.” What messed me up was I was multi tasking at work and re reading posts above just to be sure I wasn’t speaking out of context and saw your posts then flop. Mixed up. It didn’t sound like you to me either. I know where you stand on the issue but this was a little aggressive and not your style. I shoulda known.
Very true. A woman hasn’t been president for the same reason that men still feel they have the right to tell women how to beat run their lives and what to do with their bodies. A fundamental cultural sexism and application of outdated or non secular morality and ideas rooted in a stereotype of women as property or suited for making babies and caring for the home and husband. Well put.
Lol. Very Orwellian. While I disagree I see where you could draw a cynical but tongue in cheek conclusion as such. Up vote for you since you made me smile.
Take precautions..
Take precautions...
If you're not ready for children then yes take precautions like going on contraceptives and using condoms but accidents happen. Most babies that are born are not planned. If you get pregnant and don't want to keep it then there's absolutely no shame in getting an abortion. It's your choice, don't let anyone shame you over it with their concept of morals and hypocrisy.
literally never heard that before. Do you have a verse for me to look up?
Genesis 2:7- He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”
A fully formed man- Adam, was not alive until he drew his first breath.
Here’s god doing an abortion on his own in numbers 5:22-
"May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."
We know that the death penalty is prescribed many places in the Bible, and god commands against murder, not killing. We know that god has designed nature’s so that without medical aid about 1/4-1/3 of pregnancies self abort in the first trimester and a higher fraction will not be viable by birth.
.
Personal opinion of mine is that one person has no right to say whether the unconscious mass of cells in somebody else’s body is left to develop or be aborted. That is purely the females choice. Once those cells gain consciousness then abortion is (in 99% of circumstances) illegal, this makes sense to me.
The opposite is also true, those who are pro-abortion (pro-choice doesn't exist, you either condone other's killing babies, or you don't) are also guilty of forcing their beliefs on those who don't believe the same way.
>expects a shitstorm
>is a shitstorm
It always completely baffles me how religion gets dragged into abortion discussions. Oh, yes, those dirty, rotten Christians trying to save the babies, how horrible of them. Since when did "I believe in Jesus" and "Let's not kill babies, kay?" become synonymous? I'm pretty sure all people of any religion (or lack thereof) can agree that killing babies is, you know, a pretty big no-no (unless you're a part of some religion that practices child sacrifice or something...??). I happen to be Christian, but that has nothing to do with why I'm pro-life. I'm pro-life because babies are cute. Like, they're little balls of cutesy smiles and wonder. Who the heck says, "I'm going to be on the team that supports killing these tiny, precious bundles of joy :D "
HOW DARE YOU?! shouts some pro-choicer.
Well, I dare because I'm "that exception case" that everyone talks about. I was a virgin, and I was raped and became pregnant. Many of my very good friends
Many of my very good friends told me I should get an abortion. I never considered it for a second because I have no right to take another's life. I now have a 3-year-old daughter that I love more than anything else in the world. If what happened to me happened to any number of other women, this innocent child would be dead right now. So to anyone who says that a woman has the right to choose whether or not to kill her baby based on convenience or circumstance, how dare YOU. A child is not responsible for the way that it came about, and it is not aware of whether or not it is convenient. The baby's choice is that it wants to live, and it is horrifying that people think they can disregard the innocent's choice.
Now obviously there's more than a few things wrong with this picture, most of which are only tangentially related to abortion, but I think everyone's life would be better off if Timmy didn't exist. Even Timmy's would be better dead than growing up like this.
@1000thghost You've gotta love how perfectly you pegged their responses. Downvotes and pro-choicers shouting how dare you at you! There's also offensive name calling and scrambling to find arguments for why murdering babies is sometimes justifiable. Predictable.
You clearly have a passion for "saving the babies" and a heart of gold. God bless you and your little daughter, and I hope you both have a great Thursday :)
Secondly- trauma- any trauma including rape, should be respected and met with fair compassion and understanding. It is not however a get out of jail free card that allows one to do or say anything they want and then hide behind the badge of a wounded soul or a heroic figure. She has been through some hard times in life and I would not and have not tried to diminish her personal experience. Surviving a gunshot doesn’t make you an expert surgeon nor a qualified advisor on weapons, it makes you a survivor and what worked for you may not work for others.
The only plausible excuse would be if having that baby is going to kill the mother.
Repent, live for God and you will be forgiven. God loves you and wants you to choose Him. He WILL forgive you. Just repent. God LOVES you.
Not an immigrant, no opinion on immigration.
Not a police officer, on opinion on policing.
Not a corporation, no opinion on Citizens United.
Not a politician, no opinion on political transparency.
Funny how my rights are perfectly fine to infringe upon, but yours are off limits.
The idea that no one should be able to tell her what to do with her body is also a fallacy, as soon as that baby started growing, it stopped being just her body. No one should be able to tell a woman when to have sex, or how to prevent it, however, the moment of choice should be before the sex, not before the birth.
I appreciate that anyone to the left of me can make an argument on why what guest said was wrong, so thanks for that.
That said, I think I'll add my perspective on that.
http://funsubstance.com/tjg/comments/
http://funsubstance.com/tj/comments/
One is me, one is not.