Your freedom ends exactly where it starts penetrating someone elses. If your freedom necessarily includes degrading somebody else- no matter what sort of thing they fell victim to or deceided to live like- you need to practice some tolerance. Too many people mix up „freedom of speech“ with freedom to hurt and insult people who just have different opinions, ways of life or priorities.
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" - George Orwell
You have the right to speak, you do not have the right to only hear what you want to.
@guest No, freedom of speech means you can insult people, but they can absolutely insult you back. This is what so many people don't get, especially Fox News pundits and self-proclaimed "free speech warriors" (many of which are also self-proclaimed "anti-SJWs") like Tomi Lahren and her ilk who defend people like Richard Spencer but then say kneeling when the national anthem plays is literally treason because "hurr durr you're disrespecting the flag".
I thought the issue with kneeling was that the players were "on the clock" and made their bosses look bad.
Nevermind that "hands up, don't shoot" was proven wrong.
Then again, I don't watch Fox News...
I've seen a bit of news about it and the way it looks to me right now, is that the bosses didn't have an explicit problem with that. After all, it's probably the mildest form of protest ever. But out of curiosity I watched a bunch of conservative outlets talk about it and they mostly mentioned the "yer disrespecting our flag, country, troops blah blah blah"
Good point, @guest. Especially since the protest was/is about police brutality, not about the troops. I really don't see how soldiers would get offended when someone protests to point out problems within the police force, those are two separate areas.
@famousone The thing is, it's divisive because people like you said it's divisive. I'm pretty sure most people agree with limiting police brutality, no matter their political leaning. But some people, as I mentioned before, got offended seemingly for no reason and called it disrespectful. Why? It's the mildest form of protest AND it's likely most people in the audience already agree with you! It seems to me like they value a symbol over all the lost lives (both in war and to trigger happy cops), and to me that's just majorly fucked up. But I'm not American and we don't really do this over the top patriotism thing here so maybe it's just me.
They weren't protesting the police, they were protesting the United States of America.
That's what it means to kneel to the flag during the national anthem.
That symbol is why us soldiers choose to fight and put our lives on the line. That flag will be and has been draped over our coffins, given to our parents, wives, or sons to symbolize what we agreed to trade our lives for.
Symbolic speech may be protected by the constitution we swore to defend, but it still hurts to see that speech directed against us from the very people and culture our fathers and brothers have died to defend. And it fucking stings for those attacks to come from the rich and famous that so many of us and our families look up to or simply enjoy watching play on the rare holiday we get to enjoy at home.
Nothing about my patriotism is "over the top". Every little comment like that, every passive aggressive jab people have been taking at me, mine, and our nation is getting really fucking tired, really fucking fast.
You got offended because someone disrespected a funky coloured piece of cloth. How that's not over the top is beyond me.
Not to mention, people protest because they want to make the country better. They don't disrespect the country by any means, they just want certain aspects of it to improve, and they're expressing their opinion as peacefully and calmly as is humanly possible. You feel personally attacked by people who are trying to make the country a better place for everyone, really?
They aren't trying to make anything better. They're self-righteous wannabes who are starting shit over a narrative that was proven false.
It ain't about the cloth, it's about what that cloth represents.
Insulting people you disagree with will surely make me think that you're a reasonable, totally not overly nationalistic person. Yeah.
Even if they're not right, why should they be stopped from expressing their opinion? Isn't freedom of speech one of the core values y'all are supposed to fight for?
Yes. I just don't get why you're so offended by all this. Nobody's attacking you, or the country. They're saying "hey here's a problem, let's fix it" and even if you disagree with that and think they're just pretentious, I don't get why you're so touchy about it.
Because they aren't saying:
"here's a problem, let's fix it", they are saying:
"I'm more enlightened than you, and I'm gonna prove I care by disrespecting the flag and anthem your uncle, brothers, and friends killed, suffered, and died to defend! Because I know better than every idiot that would dare serve or respect a nation that has the audacity to not shame and convict every Law Enforcement Officer to do their jobs".
There's a difference.
Actually, freedom of speech does mean freedom from repercussions. What's the point of freedom of speech if you can be fined, thrown in jail, or executed for expressing your opinions? Repressing or censoring speech and an employer terminating an employee for being rude to customers are two entirely different issues.
If you support nazis then that still gives you employer the right to fire you, your partner the right to leave you, and anyone who disagrees the right to argue. You have to be retarded to think you're exempt from repercussions for what you say. Freedom of speech just means you can say what you want without being arrested (other than wanting to kill the president or something)
You have the right to speak, you do not have the right to only hear what you want to.
Nevermind that "hands up, don't shoot" was proven wrong.
Then again, I don't watch Fox News...
@famousone The thing is, it's divisive because people like you said it's divisive. I'm pretty sure most people agree with limiting police brutality, no matter their political leaning. But some people, as I mentioned before, got offended seemingly for no reason and called it disrespectful. Why? It's the mildest form of protest AND it's likely most people in the audience already agree with you! It seems to me like they value a symbol over all the lost lives (both in war and to trigger happy cops), and to me that's just majorly fucked up. But I'm not American and we don't really do this over the top patriotism thing here so maybe it's just me.
That's what it means to kneel to the flag during the national anthem.
That symbol is why us soldiers choose to fight and put our lives on the line. That flag will be and has been draped over our coffins, given to our parents, wives, or sons to symbolize what we agreed to trade our lives for.
Symbolic speech may be protected by the constitution we swore to defend, but it still hurts to see that speech directed against us from the very people and culture our fathers and brothers have died to defend. And it fucking stings for those attacks to come from the rich and famous that so many of us and our families look up to or simply enjoy watching play on the rare holiday we get to enjoy at home.
Nothing about my patriotism is "over the top". Every little comment like that, every passive aggressive jab people have been taking at me, mine, and our nation is getting really fucking tired, really fucking fast.
Not to mention, people protest because they want to make the country better. They don't disrespect the country by any means, they just want certain aspects of it to improve, and they're expressing their opinion as peacefully and calmly as is humanly possible. You feel personally attacked by people who are trying to make the country a better place for everyone, really?
It ain't about the cloth, it's about what that cloth represents.
Even if they're not right, why should they be stopped from expressing their opinion? Isn't freedom of speech one of the core values y'all are supposed to fight for?
"here's a problem, let's fix it", they are saying:
"I'm more enlightened than you, and I'm gonna prove I care by disrespecting the flag and anthem your uncle, brothers, and friends killed, suffered, and died to defend! Because I know better than every idiot that would dare serve or respect a nation that has the audacity to not shame and convict every Law Enforcement Officer to do their jobs".
There's a difference.
Basically it only counts legally.