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guest_
· 5 years ago
· FIRST
Times change. England has developed a lot in the last century or so and is now doing a good enough job fucking themselves that they don’t need help. The US has turned its attention to fucking other countries and fucking itself because the revolutionaries won’t be outdone by England! France for its part has just been doing its best to fuck human rights and fuck whatever faith the French might have in their politicians.
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creativedragonbaby
· 5 years ago
Wait the French have faith in their politicians? Since when
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purplepumpkin
· 5 years ago
We never had much faith but guest_ is right, somehow said faith is still decreasing with time. We hadn't had a beaheading in quite a long time though, so there's that.
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guest
· 5 years ago
England hasn't seen the good side of Dental Hygiene since FOREVER....
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creativedragonbaby
· 5 years ago
Cause they don’t give a shit
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guest
· 5 years ago
Here one thing fails, the country that helped the most for the United States get the independence was Spain, not France. Then the US returned the favor to Spain in the worst possible way, spreading the racist and xenophobic anti-Spanish black legend, showing racism and hatred against Spain and hiding everything that Spain did for that country. You should read more.
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guest_
· 5 years ago
While Spain’s contributions to American independence often go overlooked- your argument hardly helps the cause and over simplified as well as overlooks several major points. France was a direct ally of America offering direct support whereas Spain was an ally of France that was supporting Frances support of America since America was both a friend of a friend and enemy of an enemy. Spain was largely motivated through both its allegiance to France and its designs on political power. By fostering wars on all fronts against major European powers Spain sought Gibraltar and other prizes- and was largely successful with a major goal being to weaken the British and strengthen the Spanish position within the Caribbean to secure their interests there. Spain also had designs for the “new world” of whom their primary opposition at the time was England. By weakening English control and presence in the Americas Spain could strengthen its own position there.
guest_
· 5 years ago
The Spanish weren’t ready for open war with Britain and didn’t want to risk direct hostilities- instead hoping to use other countries like the US as a shield to absorb the brunt of such hostilities and act as a distraction and sap for British military power. So Spain largely and especially early on offered aid only where covertly able. This would of course also make it so that the majority of those outside of high levels of government weren’t aware of Spain’s involvement and hinder any good will from those Recieving said aid who were unaware it was from Spain.
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guest_
· 5 years ago
Now- it gets more complex. The “Spanish black legend” seems to have started in the 16th century as a tool of European politics and religious/ethnic conflicts. It was well established in the world before America was even a blip- and America- being made largely early on of British or French settlers with minorities of other Europeans- would have brought their exposure to such legends with them. After independence was won- the new United States found itself in a position of friction with the French and Spanish because in order to expand and form a republic, and without significant naval strength or ability- the US could t enter the game of global territories in areas like the Caribbean and Africa like other European powers of the time. The ability to gain wealth and territory beyond US borders was largely limited to the continual America’s- and having made an enemy of the crown the US was in need of strengthening its position to defend itself through gainer in riches and power.
guest_
· 5 years ago
The French walked away from their assistance in the revolution with crippling debts and diplomatic animosity in Europe which led to the French Revolution in part. The Spanish walked away having made serious political and economic gains, and in an overall advantaged position for their involvement. The weakening of the French served Spain’s interests fine since England was the primary power that made an allegiance with France advantageous and England as well was weakened and weary. The US having just fought and gained independence was likewise thought unlikely to be in a position for another go- especially with their primary ally in no position or disposition to support another war against a major power- this one happening to be their allies ally as well.
guest_
· 5 years ago
But Spain and the US came to conflict other territory and rights in the new world as the US expanded. A New France was a new deal, and Spain had its own problems caused by expansion and political squabbles in Europe. So the black legend- already existing in the minds of early European settlers, would be a convenient tool of propaganda in tones of conflict against Spain and to otherwise justify the annexation of Spanish controlled lands. Moving forward through history-
guest_
· 5 years ago
There wasn’t really time or reason to fully heal those wounds and dispel negativity towards Spain as Spain would be an on again off again enemy or opposition to the United States all the way through WW2. Key decisions made during ww2 helped to offset some less favorable concessions to the axis and engender some good will between allied powers like America and Spain, and with Spanish and US interests largely divested and separate at this point and Spain no longer the global power or military threat it once was- the US and Spain could more or less get along in the 20th century.
guest_
· 5 years ago
In US history- facts of Spanish colonization become conflated with elements of the black legend holding the Spanish as cruel conquerors. While many deeds are factual they are often contextualized to only show the negative elements of Spanish colonization and policy of the tones and not a balanced view of Spanish history which notes that many of the dark deeds of Spain were not only common practice amongst most colonial powers but also such deeds are somewhat inherent in any major power in any tone period. Issues of racial tension and resentment in former colonies then add to the legend of Spain as an evil entity in history- a “bad guy.”
guest_
· 5 years ago
And ironically- a rejection of traditionally white centric history and Spain’s status as a colonizer of European origins make it a poster child for being painted in as much negative historical light as possible by those who seek social justice and rejection of white centric historical bias.
guest_
· 5 years ago
Of course- asides offering a convenient focus for aggression to help garner support in times of conflict with Spain, painting Spain and other European powers as colonial wrong doers is advantageous when forming a new nation independent of the European theater that has done bad things but you want to paint as a noble and good one. So to help justify and gloss over unpleasant truths of American independence- American history as popularly rendered shows the United States in the best light possible. Truly, most countries histories do- with many post axis nations and post soviet or communist histories completely ignoring mass genocides or other actions by their governments and painting themselves as freedom fighters for the proper against an oppressive enemy like the US or a former legitimate government.
guest_
· 5 years ago
So same shit different day more or less. French history tends- especially that of the period following the revolution- to pain the French imperial powers as a false government not of or for the people- corrupt and reprehensible. And while many things said government did were just that- we can’t really say it was more or less worse in principal of governance than at present. The IS painted the colonial British as cruel and unreasonable overlords- but life under Britain wasn’t quite so- and the motivations for American independence as well as its legitimacy are suspect.
guest_
· 5 years ago
But... that’s how that works. History being used as a tool to help stability of power and engender support for allies and opposition to those who’s interests conflict your own. Spain’s history books are not so clean either of you care to cross reference them- and just comparing any one persons self image to the image the world has of them will prove the point that as humans we tend to put a lot of stock in how we see ourselves and will change details or ignore truths that conflict with our self image. We project that self image to governments, sports teams, other people, cars, even the brand of phone we use.
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Edited 5 years ago
guest_
· 5 years ago
That we see to threaten those things we’ve come to include in our identity- we see to threaten ourselves. That which calls into question that we believe in or support or we see as making some element of ourselves or an expression of ourself- we view the same as attacking us.
tcole3710
· 5 years ago
ok
guest_
· 5 years ago
And in the end, most of us are bad at self accountability. We certainly do not like feeling shame. But we feel that to admit one wrong of our own or to acknowledge any fault is to say that we are simply “bad” and not that we have both good and bad qualities. We fear admitting one fault or misdeed means others will blame us for everything we didn’t do- “if you did this then you surely could do this too...” which is at the least silly considering that you’re more likely to believe a person who always admits they did something if they did than a person you know denies everything wether they did it or not.
guest_
· 5 years ago
As it relates to nations- most nations feel a need to be “perfect” by this same extension- and to never admit any wrongdoing useless and sometimes even when it’s proved they did it beyond any realistic excuse. The “black legend” concerning Spain feeds from propaganda- from xenophobia and a need for people to create an “outsider” whom they could vilify and use to show how great and virtuous they are. It was a political tool in the theater of European politics to try and weaken an opposing powers position and strengthen ones own and was handed down through generations of European expansion and conquest.
guest_
· 5 years ago
In the distant past a person may never even meet one from another far off nation. News traveled slowly and media was almost non existent. In this modern world where people routinely meet those from other far off places, interact remotely, and news travels at the speed of light (figuratively) such legends pose a direct threat on a personal level- but are also in many ways easier to dispel. Human history shows it’s easier to hate a person and believe lies about them when we have no experience with them. When all we know of them is what we are told. Maybe someday such Black legends will disappear from history- but much of history world wide is built upon such legends and without time travel it is hard to figure out after the fact. I mean- the history of the occupied is one that knows the occupier as a cruel invader and the history of the occupier knows themselves as noble liberators and enlighteners. The truth usually exists between these two accounts.