I don’t get all the hate for the new Star Wars films but people are entitled to their opinions. It floors me that the previous “prequel trilogy” would be held in higher regard than the new films. I also keep in mind that pretty much right up to the release of the new films the prequel films were almost universally maligned and the subject of relentless mockery by pop culture including family guy. 10 years ago they would have made this same exact joke but with ROS being the object of ridicule- in fact they have basically done the equivalent. So maybe in a few decades the new films will become “misunderstood and imperfect but loved,” or maybe there will be another “new wave” in a few decades that will catch hate because they are new and different. Who knows. Every Star Wars film after the originally trilogy has taken its knocks though for sure.
It's because they tried to hard to make a strong female lead that they had to bring her in from nowhere and put her at the top. Much like they did with Elizabeth in Pirates of the Caribbean, with no (supervised) training they both managed to sword fight with men who had been training their entire lives.
So it isn't so much that the movies were bad, just had very bad writing that just seems to get worse with retrospect.
I don’t know. I’m not dismissing your perspective, but personally I can’t see it. Luke had very little training as well. The Lucas answer is 6 months. However if we examine the details of distances, travel times, and specifics of the ships being used concurrently and their ranges, we can see discrepancies form. In the films we can count costume changes of characters and get a rough idea how long certain things took- and for the sequences of events that occurred to transpire over 6 months would require a lot of questions be answered and thumb twiddling by protagonists. Or ret conning. Which they later did when they realized that as it was originally shot and laid out like would have had between 1 day to a few weeks of training with Yoda.
Shadows (is non cannon) and details Luke learning on Tatooine and using a book of Jedi Knowledge from obi wan, which is also how he made a new lightsaber. The semi cannon answer is that he returned to Yoda between Empire and ROTJ- but none of this is addressed in the films, and shadows cake out 16 years after ROTJ even if we want to go by that- so audiences wouldn’t have any knowledge of Luke’s additional training. Regardless of all that- a Jedi usually trains from childhood. Even the “chosen one” Anakin was “too old” to start his training and was MUCH younger than Luke. Anakin, having over a decade of training with the Jedi and decades as a sith since. He may have been “weak and old” but we see Vader is still quite strong in the force as is Palpatine. Vader was strong enough to beat the emporer at least. But it all doesn’t add up- especially if we stick only to what is shown on screen and not EU or Retcon or what we hypothesize ourselves.
Now Luke, we have no reason to believe he’d even been in a fight at all (or a real one anyone not just a schoolyard scuffle,) before meeting Obiwan. Rey we saw was already proficient in self defense and likely had to get through at least a few scrapes in her life. What Anakin and Luke had that allowed them to do better with less was a very rare natural strength in the force. Rey has such strength too- and may or may not have more or less especially in any given area.
So I just can’t see the argument that her being a Mary Sue would ruin the film, considering that Luke was also a Mary Sue (especially in Jedi,) and that the films are all over the place with inconsistencies and gaps and the like. The original prequels require retcon and EU and other help just to make sense, and even then they don’t line up quite perfectly to the continuity we see in later films. Star Wars requires one to stretch suspense of disbelief to the breaking point just to function as a whole.
As for forcing a strong female lead, that’s a matter of perception. I’ve never heard the phrase “forcing a strong male lead” or heard a person not either interested in representation or an outright misandrist say a movie wasn’t enjoyable because they placed a strong male lead with improbable abilities. The plot armor in avengers or John Wick was so thick they needed to photo shop out the light bending through it- but that didn’t seem to ruin the movie for anyone. But I do often hear about “forcing strong females.” Now I know it can’t be about representation-
Casual observation should show alone, but hard data proves there is no shortage in representation of strong male leads in film. With representation removed the other force behind complaint for male leads was misandry, and if we reverse the genders that would of course leave misogyny as a reason. But I don’t believe that everyone who objects to a strong female lead is such. Some people just see the inclusion of a “token” character as a political move and are tired of politics in entertainment. That itself has a lot to examine but I will say that when a woman being a lead protagonist who is powerful has to be political that there are some issues there.
That said- I don’t necessarily see where Rey is so different from any number of protagonists who with little or no training “beat the bad guy against stacked odds.” It’s a common trope and- often part of the “power fantasy” of the audience. “Everyman” thrust into improbable adventure and survives and triumphs where 99% of “everymen” would have died. The “training” most of the avengers had was what? Iron man took a few tests flights and suddenly a billionaire can fight? Scarlet witch was some chick in a third world town and gets Powers she can suddenly use? Spider man gets bit by a spider and suddenly can use all his new powers and fight like he’s trained his whole life? Cap was a lounge act with (maybe?) basic training.... I think we don’t notice the trope when we don’t want to notice it.
We see Iron man testing his suit multiple times before actually flying, we have to assume we only saw about 5% tops of all testing he did. Scarlet witch we have no idea how long she had her powers before facing off against the Avengers. We see her as a child in the war torn village and then as a 20 something with powers and presumably training in how to handle and use them. Spider man I'll sort of give you, but (according to the MCU spiderman) increased the amount of input he has to deal with (told to Tony when asked about the eye covers) it would increase his reaction time to a point where he can react seemingly immediately to any threat, so it only LOOKS like he knows how to fight. Same goes for Captain America, he had his abilities at least 6 months before he took on a real mission, and only got through it by shear dumb luck in my opinion.
Rey on the other hand (discounting her sword play and mind tricks that we never saw supervised training on) was purported to be one of the strongest, if not the strongest, in the force with no parental links to explain it. While Luke on the other hand, was trained by Yoda for at least a short time and started out with easier tasks, such as lifting his ship, as an example of what and how the force is used. Rey had no such training on how to access the force or what it could do.
Now after saying all that, I did enjoy the movie. I was just trying to explain why some people had a problem with it. The only thing I didn't like is that the changed Luke's character so much. The Luke of the old movies wouldn't have considered killing his student just because his mind was a touch on the dark side. Kylo was trying, it seemed, not to fall to the dark side IMO.
Tarantino and others have said that many times a plot hole is just a lack of reasoning on the part of the audience. We seldom see a character use the bathroom for instance, unless it is a plot device or scene which is somehow relevant. Now, Rey’s parentage hasn’t been explained, at all really. A conversation between her an Kylo (who is trying to break her so isn’t perhaps reliable) is the most solid lore we get. Gossip from an enemy trying to break ones spirits. That’s somewhat like saying Harry Potter is trash because Snapes motivations aren’t revealed until the end. Well.. yes. We don’t know why Rey is so strong with the force but that’s because of there is something- it hasn’t been revealed yet.
Now- we don’t need to see Rey training. A large portion of the entire world had seen Luke training (and even with Luke we only saw some of his training.) It’s like super hero origin stories. We don’t need to see how spider man gets his powers every time, and then see every other character get theirs. We get the idea. It doesn’t really add anything to the individual story or the series.
So we have to ask- if we are trying to move the plot forward and keep pacing- what would we really get from an entire movie of just Rey training? Balancing, meditating, lifting stuff, etc. the same thing we have seen. “Oh look, she’s bad at this. Oh. Now she is complaining she doesn’t understand why this particular training is important. Oh. Now she got frustrated and wants to quit and is talking about how this is wasting time or she wants to get to the real training: and her teacher gives her a lecture about being ready and foundations etc. oh. Now she’s failing and going through lots but keeps pushing. Oh look- there’s one task she failed earlier but is now able to surprise and impress her teacher. End montage.”
We know she’s strong in the force. Seemingly crazy strong. That she is a natural of some sort. Don’t know why yet. Maybe it will be nonsense when they finally unravel and unpack it all. Or maybe it will make perfect sense. But if that’s a persons reason for not liking a movie- their problem isn’t with this or that element of the film- their problem is they dislike it if a movie doesn’t spell everything out upfront.
The funny thing being that the Last Jedi was actually very well received, it's just that the people that don't like it are incredibly fucking loud about it. I'd say it might actually be my favorite star wars movie. And back when it came out, it was the same deal with Revenge of the Sith.
Except it was I'll received. At least by the Star Wars community. Not a loud minority. It's a visually stunning movie but it fucks too much up to be good. It's a shitty story with giant plot holes and a bad structure. The entire trilogy doesn't try something new, like the prequels did, but falls back on the originals. The new characters are bland and stupid, I wouldn't mind Rey being so OP if it was better implemented, but it wasn't. The old characters are not themselves, especially not Luke. Honestly they fucked him up so much and that's part of why the entire story is so bad. It doesn't implement anything new, the plot is stupid, and it felt more like a cheap Chinese knock off. And that stupid hyperspace ramming is probably the most ignorant thing you could put on screen from an in-universe perspective. It all adds up to a mediocre movie and a really bad Star Wars movie. They should've let the expanded universe remain canon and Disney should never have gotten the rights.
So, if we reconcile the statements that the new trilogy is too similar to the old formula, but it sucks because the old characters are different- a third party might say the issue isn’t that the old characters are different: keeping them carbon copies of their former selves would be rather sad after all these years (Han Solo being a geriatric who we see as pretty much exactly the same man he was at 20 is one which many found upsetting...) So we certainly need character development for them. So one might say the issue is that some people didn’t like who they became- or that who they became was different than what many hoped it would be.
That’s the problem with going beyond “happily ever after.” Most of the time we are better off not seeing how a character we love became who they are because who they were before they were the person we love.... isn’t the one we love. Likewise- seeing them after their story is done- especially as an accessory in the story of someone else.... well- that can suck too. Empire ends- outside of the EU which allows us to pick and choose what version of things we like- we are supposed to feel the whole mess is concluded and it’s all rainbows and daisies.
In their universe that isn’t the case. A civil war ended, a new one begins. In the power void of the empire chaos and the ambitions of bad people are no longer reigned in by what one can get away with under the nose of the empire. The realities of running a fledgling government and not just being a wandering adventurer fighting on principal set in. It’s politics. To do great good you have to compromise and do these little evils. Make hard choices and you can’t always be a “hero” you usually are hero to some and villain to others. The “pure good” of “crushing the evil empire” is gone and you starve these people to save those ones etc.
Sure I know that the Star Wars galaxy is filled with conflict and I'm okay with that. That's what you expect from it. That's what I want. But I find the story arch they implemented very flawed and bland. I didn't expect it to be rainbows and daises. You're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they could've made the conflict so much better in the new trilogy. Maybe show the war between the remnants of the empire and how the new Republic has to fight to implement itself. Or show a new threat. Maybe a new mandalorian war, or the Yuuzhan Vong invation. Hell even keep the first order but maybe don't make the whole Hoth thing over again but in reverse? And maybe skip the 2 hour long space bombardment that they can't escape because hyperspace tracking but then they use a smaller ship and still go to hyperspace without getting noticed? Like the general story is fine, first order badies, cool.
But the way they decided to do it just feels cheap. It could've been done better. And I don't mean in the way that anything can be done better, I mean it wouldn't have been that hard to make it better. I mean it feels more like a cheap fanfiction more than anything. And that gets back to the characters. Yeah sure people change and don't turn out the way we expect. I'm fine with most of the old cast but Luke is seriously a major fuck up. I mean seriously, I hardly think he would become a hermit because some of his students turned to the dark side. And the part where he contemplates killing Kylo? The man who saw the good in Darth Vader despite all his evil deeds? Thinks it's a good idea to murder a child because he MIGHT turn to the dark side? That just feels wrong and out of character. I'm not gonna pretend these movies are good just because it's Star Wars. And it's not just "haters" who don't like it. The people speaking out against it are fans who feel disappointed and betrayed.
We want to like it, but are we supposed to just shut up and not criticise the flaws we find just because it's Star Wars? Or just because it's a female lead? No. Fuck that. Dismissing us as "haters" is such an ignorant and childish thing to do. People aren't just crying out "this is bad, me no like", they're either saying why they think it's bad and/or are giving constructive criticism. You don't have to agree with my points on the movie, but at least stop calling us haters.
So it isn't so much that the movies were bad, just had very bad writing that just seems to get worse with retrospect.