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famousone
· 4 years ago
· FIRST
If it means an athlete isn't maimed or killed by competing against someone who is objectively more likely to maim or kill them, I'm okay with being transphobic. I don't want to be, but if that's the hill the trans community wants to die on, so be it.
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poisin_kat
· 4 years ago
It’s not that simple though. As much as a trans girl may wish her body was feminine and as much as she tries to change that, it’s inherently not. Bone density, muscle mass, lung capacity, it’s all different no matter what. I wish I could compete in girls sports, but since I have natural steroids in my body, I will not. Some of the trans community may die on this hill but I’m not dying with them.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
I respect and appreciate your views. And I certainly agree 100% on the biology of things. As a serious and NOT aggressive or sarcastic question though- something I often think about when discussing trans athletes...
guest_
· 4 years ago
What is the metric for that beyond biological sex? What I mean to say is: the levels of testosterone and other hormones we are exposed to in the womb and due to differences in genetics- as well as environmental factors, is largely what separates a competitive athlete from someone who is less capable physically. We all have a “genetic potential” for things like muscle fiber, protein synthesis, bone density, etc. largely, most people fall within a range which is dictated by biological sex- but there are outliers on the spectrum.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
So- if we measure the bone density and hormone levels of a very “naturally feminine” male- and find that red blood cell count, blah blah performance markers are in line to a female athlete- can they be granted an exemption to compete in male sports since they would be uncompetitive in male sports against the top 1% of male athletes in their genetics?
guest_
· 4 years ago
It’s an odd thing- to think about a system that would take a competition, where by default those who don’t play “well enough” are barred- and often genetics is a major factor in this- and then say “also, if you play TOO well, you can’t play, because you have biological or genetic advantages over other people.” Genetic and biological advantages underpin most competitions. It’s far more complex I know.
ardinola
· 4 years ago
The competitive aspect requires balancing though hence the creation of rules for sports - even like preventing steroid use. Like you’ve pointed out, natural steroids like a trans woman competing against biological women are unfair. Blood doping is natural technically but is still banned in most sports and effectively accomplishes the same outcome of unfairly skewing the game. Yes competition matters when those who can’t compete well enough are left behind so to speak, but it’s balanced competition that is fun to watch not something that’s always going to be one side demolishing the other.
guest_
· 4 years ago
But the balancing is arbitrary. It can be whatever we want it to be. In many sports- pads were once considered cheating. They almost certainly would have had something to say about cortisone and other common sports aids at some point in the past. High altitude training and masks that restrict oxygen intake have become a fad in training for example. We can argue all day over wether that is “natural” or not- but you’re taking an effect that could theoretically occur in nature and making it available on demand and at convenience. Creatine and many other supplements aren’t banned-
guest_
· 4 years ago
We could argue that they don’t really do anything, or much of anything- but of course- professional athletes on training programs designed to eke out any tiny advantage- a game of millimeters not centimeters or meters- when most are doing something it is likely supported as giving competitive edge. Regardless-
guest_
· 4 years ago
I’m not saying we should or shouldn’t allow trans competitors in non trans leagues- I’m saying that the same rules that allow for balancing competitions can theoretically be redone to allow at least SOME trans people to compete.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Not ALL non trans people can compete in athletics either. If you want to play pro basketball- being 250lbs and 5’5” you likely won’t make a competitive team unless you are a phenomenon- a near unicorn. But- “trans” is a very big spectrum. Just the same as I am sure there plenty of men who would lose at weight lifting or sprinting or basketball to a woman- so then, perhaps the idea of gendered sports needs to be examined, and instead we could use those rules meant to preserve competition and find ways to class players who would simply be competitive against each other?
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jokur_and_batmon
· 4 years ago
Maybe add a third ring of competition? We have male and female hockey right? So just make a trans league and let them go against one another. The only problem is there aren’t enough people to do so, but in the future it could be a cool idea
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guest_
· 4 years ago
I like where your head is at. You bring up an important point on trans leagues- a lack of player base, but also that women’s sports and female athletes already suffer a lack of interest, credibility/respect, and other challenges of being a “lesser” league to pro Men in most athketics. It’s not exactly the same as telling a person they can’t play- but telling a person they can only play if they side hundreds of millions of dollars to launch their own league is somewhat akin to the same.
guest_
· 4 years ago
But there is another major problem- “trans” is a big ass spectrum. There isn’t really a “range” for expected biology or hormones in a trans sampling. The timing of when one started hormone therapy, if they stared at all, what doses and schedule and such they are on, factor in their inherent genetics... and then you have M>F trans who generally have developed male advantages in bone structure etc but are on hormones that on the whole reduce athletic performance and cause various emotions not conducive to competition, and F>M trans who generally developed certain disadvantages biologically, but are on hormones that generally increase athletic performance and a mental state to be competitive. That becomes tough because there will be a huge range of variables compounded over time and by dosages etc.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
I had this idea for changing to an “open league format.” REALLY catching down in pro sports on ANY of the common uses and abuses of chemicals and other things to enhance and maintain performance beyond “natural,” and then opening up leagues that just don’t care what chemicals you use. Genetics and biology still factor in- but the field is more even when anyone can be on pro body builder level dosages of PED.
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Edited 4 years ago
roanoke
· 4 years ago
It could be an open open league. Not male, not female, not trans. Just all/any players.
dcottingham
· 4 years ago
Different sports have dealt in different ways with the reality that genetics has an effect on how you compete -- and it isn't just men vs. women. Wrestling, for example, has weight classes. People just need to rethink how (and why) they are dividing things up.
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Edited 4 years ago
