Stealing is taking something without the owners permission. Unpaid internships are voluntary- you can leave anytime you like. If you go to the boss and say: “here’s the deal- I’m going to take all the office supplies I want from here, and in return you will get the experience of having supplies taken...” if they say “sure” you aren’t stealing are you? Of course, they probably wouldn’t agree to that would they? Usually to agree to something one must think there is an equal or greater value to them in return right? So.... why are you working an unpaid internship if you don’t feel like there is any benefit? Leave. Problem solved. If you are there because it benefits you- that isn’t a company stealing is it- you are getting something are you not?
Now- that isn’t to say companies don’t abuse unpaid internships or that the deal isn’t stilted to their favor. Often that’s the case. Often, unpaid internships as administered are questionably ethical. But- again- you have a choice. You choose to participate in an unethical practice thereby propagating it no?
If every single car being sold in America suddenly all required you to give the seller a rim job as part of the deal- you don’t HAVE to have a car do you? It enhances your life. You have a choice. Walk away and walk- or give a rim job and drive away. You choose the price for your self respect. Of course- if no one was willing to give a rim job as part of buying a car- car sales people would likely change their practices wouldn’t they? They HAVE to sell you a car. You don’t need them to exist but they need you. But what do you do when everyone else on your block has a car- paid the price, and you have your self respect and no wheels? As long as those people keep giving rimmies- things won’t change will they?
So you can either shrug and decide to join the problem and enjoy your new car- or you can stick to your ethics and refuse. And yeah- that has consequences. But if you sell out- you’re part of the problem now aren’t you? You’re one of those people stopping change, because your self respect was worth the cost.
But if you participate in an unethical institution and your way to square that with yourself is to commit an unethical act in retaliation- you aren’t a “good guy.” You’re unethical. You do unethical things to get what you want and to satisfy your ego. The high road is too hard for you to walk, and you belong in the mud. What’s the difference between you and the guys you’re stealing from at that point? You’ve both shown that you’re willing to get dirty in order to get what you want. So you get whatever benefit the internship had and free supplies or supplies to sell- and you feel good about that because why? You got what you felt you deserved without having to come about it honestly? Isn’t that what the people using free interns abusively are doing? Just taking whatever they can get away with?
If you don’t want to be there- leave. If you don’t think the system is right, change it. Vigilante justice is for comic books and children. Grow up and think of the world as more than just that thing that exists around you. When all those supplies go missing- you don’t think someone else will feel some of the consequences? Increased restrictions to people just trying to do their job, increased scrutiny of future or other interns?
And stop being part of the problem. When you’re all growed up and working a paying job- probably why you’re doing an unpaid internship- to get a foot in the door or as a class or other requirement to get into a career- are you magically going to change who you are? No. If this is the way you think- someday when you’re in charge you’re going to be just as bad as the guys you’re pissed at- maybe not in the same way, but crooked is crooked. A person who feels they have the authority to “make their own rules” and decide what is right or wrong and do whatever they want to set it “right” by them is a person that will cause problems. Self centered, selfish, arrogant, egotistical, petty and vindictive. Be better. If you don’t like something- don’t become it to get revenge, be better than it. Be the change you want to see or admit it isn’t about morality- it’s just about you getting what you want.
While I agree regarding the virtue of stealing. It’s really not so simple as to not participate.
In some industries that is the only way to get a job. And some degree programs you have to do an internship to graduate. Maybe some virtuoso could escape the prescribed course but for a lot of young people, there’s no choice but to submit to the abuse or change career path.
I certainly understand that and sympathize- but, that’s part of the job. If you want to be a pilot you’re likely oaths are join the military or pay a good deal of money- you can’t get around flight hours, it’s part of getting the job. Traditionally (less nowadays) pilots were well paid and respected, and the job was worth the investment. If you want to be a Doctor but you don’t want to put in your rotations at a clinic or ER etc- tough sh%t. That’s part of becoming a doctor. Undergrad TA’s and other TA’s often don’t get paid at all. It’s part of becoming a teacher. Some careers are like that. School (if any) isn’t the “end” of preparations. The intern is the one trying to better your position in life, THEY’RE the one that wants to be in that field. Writers, actors, Comics... it’s a long list of jobs beyond offices, usually well paying careers that if one gets started in will see them to a very good life- where one must put in time for no compensation to get a foot in the door.
It shouldn’t be a secret- you should know if you decide to be a teacher that you’ll probably have to work for free as a TA, and then you’ll likely make little money after that. But if you know all this going in and you still pursue that path- you can’t really claim to be cheated when exactly what was expected to happen, what was advertised- is what happens. You can think it’s wrong and you deserve better, work for change- but being bitter or resorting to “revenge” because you made a deal that you can get out of, but you don’t want to- that’s not acceptable to me. If you want a thing you pay the price. If the price is too high you bargain to what you are willing to pay, walk away, or suck it up and pay it. You don’t shake hands on the deal and then rob them when they aren’t looking because you don’t like the agreement YOU made.
Side note- if we flip the perspective, in most fields interns are limited in what they can and cannot do- legally, practically, or by prudence of experience. You’re getting a free gopher, a free set of eyes and hands, maybe some skilled labor depending on the field. But- nothing worth hiring full time right? If I have to pay medical, dental, disability insurance, take on liability and head count and do all the hiring paperwork to get onboard someone so that they can get college credit and take sandwich orders, make copies, act like an assistant... it’s not really worth it from a business perspective in most senses is it? Why not fork out a little more and hire a dedicated, full time, potentially long term entry level employee who already had their experience and such at that point? Why mess around with interns at all unless they are particularly promising and we have some sort of arrangement where they are bound to work for me once they’ve been “broken in”?
But we run into many problems there. We could change the laws, much like independent contractors in many states- we could create a set of criteria for the types of work an “intern” can do and be called an intern. We could set up a special wage law that allows sub minimum wages and or reduced or no benefits etc, mitigate liability and expenses to corporations hiring interns while paying a fair wage for a sort of employee who has reduced capacity and accountability. But.... then much as we’ve seen with “exempt” employees- who’s to say that companies won’t just abuse that system and classify more workers as “interns” and reduce their overhead- or that some start up won’t side step rules for temp agencies by staffing “gig economy” interns the way Ride shares side stepped employee and public protections and costs required for transportation providers?
the law dictates that the organization cannot gain more benefit that the unpaid intern. So, if you have someone making copies and and taking coffee/sandwich orders and you aren’t paying them— you’re breaking the law.
The reason it is okay to hire an intern and not pay them is that you are utilizing skilled labor to train unskilled persons. Fetching coffee is not a specialized skill that a skilled laborer within your organization is taking time out of their daily responsibilities to train the intern in the nuanced practice of.
Using skilled labor to show an intern how to apply the UP&LA to materials for retail in the US is supported in the law. The skilled laborer must spend time tutoring the intern, and the intern learns an important skill.
The bottom line, under the law, is that the organization is not getting this labor for free. They are trading equally valuable labor.
And we do have very specific laws regarding internships. It doesn’t require a change at all. In fact, legally, most “internships” must be paid to be compliant with the law.
The problem is, interns are usually young people who are excited and desperate to break into the field. They don’t know any better and they don’t have the power or leverage to make a change.
If you cant beat them, join them then? If the company you are interning for is breaking the law- you do have power. You have the power to report them to regulators and expose them. Young people not having power for change is a huge myth. They may not have the stones to use the power they have- but the young, especially in today’s world, have tremendous power especially through leveraging platforms like social media.
If the internship is legal- my point stands. You’re stealing from someone who hasn’t broken the law because you made a deal you didn’t think was sweet enough- no different than execs embezzling money because they want more than their pay plan they agreed to. If Ken Lay thought he was worth all that money and was underpaid, was he “right,” a “hero” for stealing what he was “owed” from Enron?
If the internship is illegal- being young isn’t an excuse. Asides the power dynamic- younger people tend to be more morally binary. The fact a person is willing to enable an illegal and unethical scam for personal enrichment even when that means propagating that scam so that others suffer from it- that certainly is aligned with the morality of a person who would rob their employer and justify it as recommence for transgressions against them.
Now as I said before- these companies DO prey on and take advantage of people. That IS wrong. There is no disagreement there. And it is easy to say that a person should refuse to be complicit in wrong doing even at personal loss- but who in this world in 2020 isn’t somehow complicit in wrong doing? So it is more complex and it is wrong, but nothing you can say to me on the matter will justify in my mind, stealing from your employer as a way to use wrong to right the wrong you are complicit in.
@guest_ I’m not arguing in favor of stealing from an employer, no matter if what they are doing is right or wrong. I started off with that. Let me say it again. Stealing is wrong. Stealing from someone who you feel has wronged you is still wrong.
Yes, young people do have a lot more power than they realize. But that doesn’t change the exploitation that happens very regularly. And the company that is running the internship probably has better lawyers than the intern does. And every now and then you see it pop up where a group of interns go together to try to fight for their rights. But it’s really hard to prove who got more benefit from an internship.
I wasn’t trying to suggest that stealing is okay. I was suggesting that we don’t have to change the laws to protect interns. We just have to follow them. The laws exist and are very specific. Having hired interns, I’ve spent some time with the labor laws in that regard.
Ah. I missed that you were saying we don’t have to change the laws. I’m no expert on internship laws, I only mentioned them because if people are doing something illegal, there’s recourse. If people are not doing anything illegal, and people have a problem with it- make it illegal or be the change you want in the world. And as I said- I know that it’s much easier to say “just do this or do that” and life is more complex than that-
But determining who is getting the greater benefit is a simple matter. All value in transactions is relative. People pay 200% mark ups on software or luxury goods etc and feel like they got a good deal, and you have people who pay $10k to save their own life and think they were cheated. The simple way to tell of both parties feel a deal is equally or more beneficial to them than the cost (assuming we take them as competent adults) is wether they make the deal or not.
I’ve paid 2x what something costs online- and more than I think it’s worth, but I needed it and I needed it that day. If I didn’t, why would I have bought it? So I can’t say I was ripped off can I? Now there is a case to be made for profiteering or duress- but I assure you the world is full of people who manage to survive fine without ever doing an internship paid or otherwise- so we certainly can’t classify it as a necessity can we?
And I suppose that is where some of my perturbment on the subject comes from. We ha e things like housing that we could call necessities for all intents and purposes- where a large percentage of Americans are in perilous or barely tenable situations of not effectively or completely without- and I feel for anyone suffering, but I can’t really throw my weight behind a bunch of future white collar suburbanites crying it will take them a couple extra whole years to afford the lifestyle that a huge percentage of their peers will never have.
Yeah, I guess if you work in an industry where internships are required you can just get a different career. But that’s not really a solution. That’s someone saying I don’t think you need it so it isn’t important. No, it’s not life threatening in the way experiencing homelessness can be.
For sure, we are operating in the self actualization point of the pyramid, but to suggest that someone should work in a field they don’t like or aren’t suited for because they don’t want to be exploited is sort of cruel.
The question of who gets more value is not black and white. At first glance it is easy. Intern needs internship, employer provides internship. But if the internship is unpaid, and the employer is not ensuring that the internship is providing the experience needed to get a paying job but is requiring a lot fetching—that’s not fulfilling the intent of the program. But is it because the employer isn’t providing the opportunity or because the intern isn’t taking them? And if the employer says they are providing and the intern is sure they aren’t who is correct? The party with the better lawyers.
Some careers that require internships go on to make big money, but not all of them. Sometimes these interns are just trying to get a job that pays them $10-12 an hour.
I get where you’re coming from, and again- wether it’s laws, or people taking a stand, or enforcement of existing law, some combination or something else- exploiting people is wrong, and “internships” are often unfairly skewed or abusive. But- people don’t act against their self interest in the general sense. If the intern is there and no force or coercion is applied- but of an intern could leave and consents to be there, the intern feels they are serving their self interest. That establishes the intern feels it’s a benefit equal to or greater the cost.
In some industries that is the only way to get a job. And some degree programs you have to do an internship to graduate. Maybe some virtuoso could escape the prescribed course but for a lot of young people, there’s no choice but to submit to the abuse or change career path.
The reason it is okay to hire an intern and not pay them is that you are utilizing skilled labor to train unskilled persons. Fetching coffee is not a specialized skill that a skilled laborer within your organization is taking time out of their daily responsibilities to train the intern in the nuanced practice of.
Using skilled labor to show an intern how to apply the UP&LA to materials for retail in the US is supported in the law. The skilled laborer must spend time tutoring the intern, and the intern learns an important skill.
The bottom line, under the law, is that the organization is not getting this labor for free. They are trading equally valuable labor.
The problem is, interns are usually young people who are excited and desperate to break into the field. They don’t know any better and they don’t have the power or leverage to make a change.
Yes, young people do have a lot more power than they realize. But that doesn’t change the exploitation that happens very regularly. And the company that is running the internship probably has better lawyers than the intern does. And every now and then you see it pop up where a group of interns go together to try to fight for their rights. But it’s really hard to prove who got more benefit from an internship.
I wasn’t trying to suggest that stealing is okay. I was suggesting that we don’t have to change the laws to protect interns. We just have to follow them. The laws exist and are very specific. Having hired interns, I’ve spent some time with the labor laws in that regard.
For sure, we are operating in the self actualization point of the pyramid, but to suggest that someone should work in a field they don’t like or aren’t suited for because they don’t want to be exploited is sort of cruel.
Some careers that require internships go on to make big money, but not all of them. Sometimes these interns are just trying to get a job that pays them $10-12 an hour.