I thought the Canadian gov'ment was communist; what with the universal healthcare and gun control. But I guess it's fascist now. My, how narratives change.
Communism and fascism are mutually exclusive. Fascism is class based and hierarchical. The leadership, the elite, the working class, then the undersireables. Fascism is inherently nationalistic. Whereas communism is inherently outward facing. Private property exists in a fascist nation whereas it doesn't under communism. There is some overlap in militarism and anti-democratic practices.
In China, land is technically owned by the government, and it's use is distributed to everyone based on their need.....
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But who decides what they need?
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What I'm suggesting is that you're technically correct. But at the end of the day, the elite still make all of the decisions.
China isn't a communist country. No matter how much their propaganda and ruling party claim to be. Land in China is owned by the government but land is leased to private individuals for a set price for 99 years. It's defacto land ownership. Ever since the death of Mao and the succession of Deng Xiaoping China is a capitalist nation in all but name. The Chinese call is "Communism with Chinese Charictaristics".
Nationalism is just as prevalent in fascist systems as it is communist ones.
As for your description of fascism, are you sure you're not projecting Nazism over fascism? Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable". They're very practical, insisting that there are those who benefit the state, and those that have earned state benefits.
Private property does not truly exist in a fascist nation, as fascism is just the state. Nothing except, against, or outside, the state. Ultimately there is no private property to either of them. "Defacto" land ownership is not land ownership anymore than a nation is democratic while still having a dictator.
And I'll argue too that China is not capitalist, as their government is selling the people as slave labor for state benefit. If anything, China is closer to your given definition of Fascism, which I would be willing to concede is "Fascism with Chinese characters". As Nazism was European.
Kind of arguing semantics. I'm fairly certain no country have ever successfully pulled off communism.
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Idk how you can't to define Canada. A priest who got his citizenship and came from Poland has described much of what's happening now as fascist.
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You can be compelled to say things under penalty of financial loss and/or jail time here.
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The government takes wealth from provinces who have it and distributes it to ones who don't. Which isn't a huge issue except the poor provinces never seem to take steps towards not needing as much financial support, resulting in huge discrepancies (talking billions)
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one of the writers of our charter is suing the Canadian government for violating our human rights
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Trudeau has stated he admire's China's dictatorship
They have tried to pass laws that would allow Rcmp to enter your home without any warning or warrant if they suspect you have a gun on the premise, or have suspect you have driven drunk.
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They have attempted to pass laws where you are found automatically guilty of traffic violations, and should you wish to fight them, you will have to pay to appear before court - which essentially makes justice a class based system.
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Our Prime Minister was involved in a huge corruption scandal involving fraud and bribery with another country. He attempted to fire the woman investigating him over it. To my knowledge he never faced any actual repercussions.
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Our Prime Minister declared the terrorist BLM and Antifa tactics in our and other countries as "Peaceful protests" (nevermind that many of them burned buildings and toppled statues of insignificant people like the founder of Canada). He labels the truckers homophobic, violent, racist, terrorists.
The media received funding from the government from what I can tell. As a result, they by and large report what Trudeau wants reported.
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A father has been jailed repeatedly because a mother and the school conspired to indoctrinate a child with gender therapy and the father did not want to go along with this
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Our government actively took part in spreading unverified claims of mass child graves, directly leading to the burning of many churches, the cancelling of celebrations of our independence, and increasing racial tensions across the board.
I don't know WHAT people would classify Canada as. I just know there is something very wrong in this country.
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And the truckers are the first sign in a long time that maybe the pendulum is finally swinging the way back
I won't presume to know more about Canada than you, but I am thankful that you're willing to educate us and shine light on the issues. And I really to hope that many more people are willing to follow the example set by your truckers.
It's honestly pathetic how little I do know about Canada. They don't teach it in schools. I learned more about America and world war II than I did about Canada. And this isn't an uncommon theme.
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A friend of mine who emigrated from Egypt told me on multiple occasions how disturbing he finds our education system with the lack of focus on basic history and geography.
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I'm working to learn more as I can. I think others are starting to as well.
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We can't cure the sickness if we don't understand what's causing it. And it will only get worse if left untreated
"And I'll argue too that China is not capitalist, as their government is selling the people as slave labor for state benefit." As hyperbolic as ever I see. Do you believe every individual in China is a slave to the state and it's enterprises? Entrepreneurship is a large part of Chinese culture. Alibaba and Didi Chuxing are just two examples. In my area of expertise, pharmaceutical companies, most are private entities. The existence of private enterprise is capitalism. Capitalism exists under autocratic regimes. China is an autocratic state. China is a socialist welfare state with capitalist institutions.
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Land ownership can be defined however you want based on whatever culture you ascribe to. You could make the argument that due to tax laws in the US you never truly own land here.
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"Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable"" In the one true Fascist nation under Mussolini the rights of the minority were abysmal.
Most of the political rights and freedoms won for Italian women were revoked/reversed. This was an attempt to force women back into the mothership roles that Fascist regimes priortise. You also have the Italian colonial holdings. Ethiopia for example was conqured by the Facists in 1935. In doing so the Italian army, with Mussolini's permission, used chemical weapons to kill the resisting eithopians which had been outlawed in the Hague, which Italy signed, with the justification that colonial subjects weren't people. There are extensive articles written about Italian occupation of Ethiopia with citations expressing how and in what ways racial and religious segration were strictly enforced.
It's hard for me to believe that having read so much on the Fascists rise in Italy, as with the rise of Naziism in Germany, and Fracoist Spain as the fascist forces of Europe that people can say with a straight face that Communism and Fascism are one and the same when nearly all base fascist writings were filled to the brim with anti-communist rhetoric.
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The right of private ownership of land, so long as you were of a desirable race, sex, religion, or parentage, was permitted in fascism whereas it was entirely illegal in the USSR.
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The anti-labor movements headed by corporate and manufacturing leaders using a militarized police force to beat workers into submission at the behest of the state is seen as communism is baffling to me.
@xvarnah All of my arguments with Famous are semantics arguments. He has a very hammer and nail view on the world as far as I can tell. Nuance is hard to come by when discussing things with him. It's just par for the course.
Idk I've found he can get quite nuanced depending on the subject
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For communism vs fascism I think at the end of the day because so many fascist places have touted themselves as communist and used communism as a way to get compliance long enough to instill fascism is probably why people use the terms so interchangeably
I think the issue is the term fascism in the first place. In right wing circles of today fascism seems to be synonymous with totalitarianism/autocracy. I.e. anything that can be percieved as against "individual rights" is totalitarian and/or fascism. Which is not what fascism is. Fascists are totalitarians but totalitarians aren't all fascist.
Fascism is a nativist, nationalist, and imperialistic system of government that totes military action and conquest of lesser peoples as their foundational doctrines. Right wingers in the US today aren't fascists. Fascists are Fascists. So much of this rhetoric has been muddled by the political state of right wing politics here in the US rn. As the neo cons and trumpists are fighting for party supremacy rn.
For once, I'm not being hyperbolic. The Chinese people are slaves. A self-replenishing resource leased by the state for cheap labor to the likes of Iran, North Korea, USA, several African nations. Nevermind that Chinese people are being held in concentration camps to supply the organ trade. And none of that is capitalistic, there is no free trade or open market. Maybe some industrialists can avoid the plight of the other slaves by advancing the Party agenda, being too smart to waste, or well-connected enough to not have to play by rules. But they still serve at the pleasure and for the benefit of the State. They can't assemble for protest or prayer, have no privacy, no freedom of movement or information. They are slaves.
Don't look at me with a straight face and tell me communist party members don't live better lives with "defacto" property based on connections or race.
And of course fascist writings hated commies. They were the same, headed by the same kinds of tyrants.
And all tyrants hate competition.
Totalitarian statists that aggregate power for themselves and regard the people as resources and state property, while ultimately claiming every bit of value, labor, and blood, as theirs alone.
The issue of race is a product of the Era, not any government. As every nation with any system hated certain races. Imperial Japs, Democrat Americans, Nazis, British, Indians. It's a non-point to try and attribute racism to any political system.
If the Nazis were commie, and the Soviets were fascist, what would be different from how they were?
"Fascism is a nativist, nationalist, and imperialistic system of government that totes military action and conquest of lesser peoples as their foundational doctrines."
Are you describing Castro? Che? The Soviets? CCP? This holds true for literally all communists and fascists.
"If the Nazis were commie, and the Soviets were fascist, what would be different from how they were?" There would've been different leaders in charge of each country lmao.
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This is 100% hyperbolic. "The Chinese people are slaves".
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"It's a non-point to try and attribute racism to any political system." That wasn't the point of that section. You said "Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable" and yet the historical basis of the fascist movement was classist at it's base. Workers remain under the bosses and the bosses wave a stick to keep it that way. That's hierarchical. Womens rights to representation and work being removed is patriarchal. A colonial peoples being subject to racial purity measurements is hierarchical. If you weren't a macho Italian man willing to die on the front lines fighting in the imperial struggle to reconvene the Roman Empire you were a second class citizen. That is heirarchical.
I haven't had time to read all of this but I will admit I likely have used the terms interchangeably.
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I've found in Canada right now arguing whether we're becoming fascist vs totalitarian etc is somewhat a moot point --- corrupt people trying to take away our freedoms and destroy the country is the part that gets me.
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In terms of academic study/discussion I can see how it makes a difference to a degree mind you
Historians and political experts have still not been able to nail down an exact definition for the idea of fascism. It's a word that gets thrown around a lot by people who don't know what it means. For me, the definition is as follows : "Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties."
I do therefore not believe Canada is a fascist country.
Neither is China, but China is as vulture capitalism as it gets. China is so libertarian when it comes to economics, you can pretty much do anything to make money. Sell slaves, human organs, anything. As long as you don't criticize the government, you're good.
That's not libertatian. That's literally the opposite. And it isn't capitalism either, unless you were educated by Marxists, who will ascribe all evils to capitalism because if they actually understood economics or slavery they wouldn't be Marxists.
Fascism is "Everything for the state. Nothing against the state. Nothing outside the state. Nothing but the state". It is a "Union of State and Corporation" (ie: Production and the means thereof belong to the state- hey that sounds familiar).
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But who decides what they need?
.
What I'm suggesting is that you're technically correct. But at the end of the day, the elite still make all of the decisions.
As for your description of fascism, are you sure you're not projecting Nazism over fascism? Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable". They're very practical, insisting that there are those who benefit the state, and those that have earned state benefits.
Private property does not truly exist in a fascist nation, as fascism is just the state. Nothing except, against, or outside, the state. Ultimately there is no private property to either of them. "Defacto" land ownership is not land ownership anymore than a nation is democratic while still having a dictator.
And I'll argue too that China is not capitalist, as their government is selling the people as slave labor for state benefit. If anything, China is closer to your given definition of Fascism, which I would be willing to concede is "Fascism with Chinese characters". As Nazism was European.
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Idk how you can't to define Canada. A priest who got his citizenship and came from Poland has described much of what's happening now as fascist.
.
You can be compelled to say things under penalty of financial loss and/or jail time here.
.
The government takes wealth from provinces who have it and distributes it to ones who don't. Which isn't a huge issue except the poor provinces never seem to take steps towards not needing as much financial support, resulting in huge discrepancies (talking billions)
.
one of the writers of our charter is suing the Canadian government for violating our human rights
.
Trudeau has stated he admire's China's dictatorship
.
They have attempted to pass laws where you are found automatically guilty of traffic violations, and should you wish to fight them, you will have to pay to appear before court - which essentially makes justice a class based system.
.
Our Prime Minister was involved in a huge corruption scandal involving fraud and bribery with another country. He attempted to fire the woman investigating him over it. To my knowledge he never faced any actual repercussions.
.
Our Prime Minister declared the terrorist BLM and Antifa tactics in our and other countries as "Peaceful protests" (nevermind that many of them burned buildings and toppled statues of insignificant people like the founder of Canada). He labels the truckers homophobic, violent, racist, terrorists.
.
A father has been jailed repeatedly because a mother and the school conspired to indoctrinate a child with gender therapy and the father did not want to go along with this
.
Our government actively took part in spreading unverified claims of mass child graves, directly leading to the burning of many churches, the cancelling of celebrations of our independence, and increasing racial tensions across the board.
.
And the truckers are the first sign in a long time that maybe the pendulum is finally swinging the way back
.
A friend of mine who emigrated from Egypt told me on multiple occasions how disturbing he finds our education system with the lack of focus on basic history and geography.
.
I'm working to learn more as I can. I think others are starting to as well.
.
We can't cure the sickness if we don't understand what's causing it. And it will only get worse if left untreated
-
Land ownership can be defined however you want based on whatever culture you ascribe to. You could make the argument that due to tax laws in the US you never truly own land here.
-
"Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable"" In the one true Fascist nation under Mussolini the rights of the minority were abysmal.
-
The right of private ownership of land, so long as you were of a desirable race, sex, religion, or parentage, was permitted in fascism whereas it was entirely illegal in the USSR.
-
The anti-labor movements headed by corporate and manufacturing leaders using a militarized police force to beat workers into submission at the behest of the state is seen as communism is baffling to me.
.
For communism vs fascism I think at the end of the day because so many fascist places have touted themselves as communist and used communism as a way to get compliance long enough to instill fascism is probably why people use the terms so interchangeably
Fascism is a nativist, nationalist, and imperialistic system of government that totes military action and conquest of lesser peoples as their foundational doctrines. Right wingers in the US today aren't fascists. Fascists are Fascists. So much of this rhetoric has been muddled by the political state of right wing politics here in the US rn. As the neo cons and trumpists are fighting for party supremacy rn.
Don't look at me with a straight face and tell me communist party members don't live better lives with "defacto" property based on connections or race.
And of course fascist writings hated commies. They were the same, headed by the same kinds of tyrants.
Totalitarian statists that aggregate power for themselves and regard the people as resources and state property, while ultimately claiming every bit of value, labor, and blood, as theirs alone.
The issue of race is a product of the Era, not any government. As every nation with any system hated certain races. Imperial Japs, Democrat Americans, Nazis, British, Indians. It's a non-point to try and attribute racism to any political system.
If the Nazis were commie, and the Soviets were fascist, what would be different from how they were?
Are you describing Castro? Che? The Soviets? CCP? This holds true for literally all communists and fascists.
-
This is 100% hyperbolic. "The Chinese people are slaves".
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"It's a non-point to try and attribute racism to any political system." That wasn't the point of that section. You said "Actual fascists I've talked to have taken great offense to the idea that anybody is "elite" or "undesirable" and yet the historical basis of the fascist movement was classist at it's base. Workers remain under the bosses and the bosses wave a stick to keep it that way. That's hierarchical. Womens rights to representation and work being removed is patriarchal. A colonial peoples being subject to racial purity measurements is hierarchical. If you weren't a macho Italian man willing to die on the front lines fighting in the imperial struggle to reconvene the Roman Empire you were a second class citizen. That is heirarchical.
.
I've found in Canada right now arguing whether we're becoming fascist vs totalitarian etc is somewhat a moot point --- corrupt people trying to take away our freedoms and destroy the country is the part that gets me.
.
In terms of academic study/discussion I can see how it makes a difference to a degree mind you
I do therefore not believe Canada is a fascist country.
Neither is China, but China is as vulture capitalism as it gets. China is so libertarian when it comes to economics, you can pretty much do anything to make money. Sell slaves, human organs, anything. As long as you don't criticize the government, you're good.
Fascism is "Everything for the state. Nothing against the state. Nothing outside the state. Nothing but the state". It is a "Union of State and Corporation" (ie: Production and the means thereof belong to the state- hey that sounds familiar).