Lol. Maybe. Though it illustrates an important point perhaps. Often we may feel there’s “no winning” with some of these issues- and to be fair a small number of people just can’t be pleased. Usually we can take one or two of these lessons away though:
1. Not all people are the same, even from the same “group.”
2. Usually what people want when they are genuinely offended is consideration. We could take the person off the package to say: “see? We did it. You complained about this and we made it go away.” That’s not actually very hard to do though is it? What would be harder and more meaningful is to understand WHY a person is upset and respond in a way that addresses that. That could mean ensuring your mascot is a correct reflection of the culture and respectful such as observing accurate dress for a specific tribe etc. it could also mean looking at what you’re doing- why is this specific cultural representation your mascot? What is the link between your company and those people?
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· 2 years ago
What "native American"? You mean Rebecca Whitebread performing as Pocahontas in a generic Milwaukee High School presentation?
A company ran by indigenous people, founded, or majority owned by and known for good dealings with those people could likely use such a mascot and have it be considered appropriate. A company founded to serve a specific group or their needs or to preserve or advance their culture where individuals and a larger majority of that culture are involved likely could as well. A company that has strong positive ties to that culture such as one where a reasonable percentage of their proceeds goes to that group directly or in forms of programs like scholarships, justice funds, or other aid probably could too.
As an example of both these lessons- many indigenous people of the Americas don’t call themselves or like to be called “Native American.” I’ve known many friends and family who preferred the term “Indian” and found the term “native” to be a PC washing insult. I’d say by the numbers in my experience- most prefer to be called by their tribe. There wasn’t a singular “Native American” identity or culture, and one of the specific challenges faced by many tribes and the source of much of the offense around these enrichments through such imagery is the near or complete extinction and erasure- a systemic genocide- of tribes. So for many, a core issue surrounds proving and protecting the existence of their people, their tribe.
For all the guilt and apologies and reluctant acknowledgements through history of the deliberate murder and subsequent erasure of the culture and language and lives of various tribes; and for all the broken treaties- all the times that even when the laws of those they dealt with would favor the tribes but were ignored because they weren’t seen as human or it was a matter of practical gain not to… there is a strong sensitivity when others, especially white Americans and Europeans, take material benefit from evoking tribal imagery or concepts, and then simply “erase” the wrong and offer perhaps a “sorry for the ignorance of the past…”
They keep all the gains of course, and once more the consolation is a note in future writings about how wrong it was for past people to do these things… even when the people who did them are still alive and prosperous.
So in conclusion and kind of a TL:DR-
When trying to respect other people or cultures, when trying to mend the wrongs of the past- we kinda have to be more thoughtful than just: “let’s apologize and then erase it and move on.” It’s very easy for me to steal your wallet and keep it, then say: “hey- that’s the past man. We have to move on…” I would be very satisfied to have you and everyone else basically forget about the wallet and treat me friendly again. You would probably at least want your wallet back though or something more than a seemingly empty apology.
It’s not a game of “just do what we think they want to make it go away..” that’s not how it works when what a person is asking for is consideration from another. We have to actually consider others.
Native American is too broad, Indian or American Indian as a term includes the native tribes of the area in the US, southern Canada, and some but not all Caribbean native tribes. Native American could mean anyone from an Inuit to an amazon tribe.
Personally I use the term “native” by itself when referring to certain things, the specific tribe I mean when referring to others, and when referring to myself it goes down a chain depending on if the person understood the previous going, Cherokee, native, Native American. To me Native American sounds PC but American Indian sounds PC too, just less so and is apparently getting the “queer” treatment of being reclaimed by the people it defines.
Presumptuous and Colonialist, actually.
Like Latinx.
My people prefer "Indian" (well, we prefer our tribe's name, but whatever).
We've been Indian, when the Spanish landed, when we fought beside and against the colonists, when the government breated an agency for our "Affairs", through genocide and ethnic cleansings.
They only wanted to call us "Native American" (such a stupid way to refer to us, all people born in a land are "Native-x") when self-loathing whites decided they wanted some way to feel morally superior over their long-dead predecessors, but without actually doing anything or learning a single thing.
@vantablack
There is a decent amount of people that prefer Indian over any of the other blanket terms. There’s a couple year old cgp grey video that talks about it “Indian or Native American? [reservatjons, part 0]”
At least in 2019, it was nearly universal, not entirely but nearly, that on reservations they identified as Indians secondary to their tribe over any other blanket term.
My tribe specifically is one of the reasons it’s “nearly.” My preferences are heavily influenced by growing up within the tribe and the majority of people I’ve had personal experience with in my tribe will refer to themselves by tribe first, native second, and identify with the term native more than Indian.
@vantablack- I’m not coming for you or anything like that, and I don’t know your experiences. I can believe that in your own experience you haven’t encountered people who could be considered “Native American” etc. who would prefer the term “Indian.”
Famousone seems to have experience otherwise, and in one of my above posts I mention my own experiences where we both know people who prefer the term “Indian” over “Native American” as well as people who prefer neither and would rather be identified by tribal affiliation.
Of course to some extent I am sure there may be generational relationships between identity preferences- we see this with many groups where older generations may have a preference for a certain identity while younger ones may prefer another or create a new identity.
In all- I think the most important factors are that we recognize and respect the right of groups and individuals within a group to self identify and that we not be overzealous in assigning identity to others. That itself is a complicated and nuanced topic full of little quirks and qualifiers I won’t get into at the moment, but in a very general sense following that philosophy and sticking to respecting the identity of the person you are speaking with/about are the sort of core there.
If an individual or specific group/sub group tells us how they identify themselves, we should try to respect it as best able. That’s my own opinion anyway.
Out of curiosity, are you here who know people who prefer "Indian" from the US?
I'm asking because that doesn't really seem to be as much of a thing here in Canada, and I'm thinking it might be a regional thing.
1. Not all people are the same, even from the same “group.”
2. Usually what people want when they are genuinely offended is consideration. We could take the person off the package to say: “see? We did it. You complained about this and we made it go away.” That’s not actually very hard to do though is it? What would be harder and more meaningful is to understand WHY a person is upset and respond in a way that addresses that. That could mean ensuring your mascot is a correct reflection of the culture and respectful such as observing accurate dress for a specific tribe etc. it could also mean looking at what you’re doing- why is this specific cultural representation your mascot? What is the link between your company and those people?
They keep all the gains of course, and once more the consolation is a note in future writings about how wrong it was for past people to do these things… even when the people who did them are still alive and prosperous.
When trying to respect other people or cultures, when trying to mend the wrongs of the past- we kinda have to be more thoughtful than just: “let’s apologize and then erase it and move on.” It’s very easy for me to steal your wallet and keep it, then say: “hey- that’s the past man. We have to move on…” I would be very satisfied to have you and everyone else basically forget about the wallet and treat me friendly again. You would probably at least want your wallet back though or something more than a seemingly empty apology.
It’s not a game of “just do what we think they want to make it go away..” that’s not how it works when what a person is asking for is consideration from another. We have to actually consider others.
Personally I use the term “native” by itself when referring to certain things, the specific tribe I mean when referring to others, and when referring to myself it goes down a chain depending on if the person understood the previous going, Cherokee, native, Native American. To me Native American sounds PC but American Indian sounds PC too, just less so and is apparently getting the “queer” treatment of being reclaimed by the people it defines.
Like Latinx.
My people prefer "Indian" (well, we prefer our tribe's name, but whatever).
We've been Indian, when the Spanish landed, when we fought beside and against the colonists, when the government breated an agency for our "Affairs", through genocide and ethnic cleansings.
They only wanted to call us "Native American" (such a stupid way to refer to us, all people born in a land are "Native-x") when self-loathing whites decided they wanted some way to feel morally superior over their long-dead predecessors, but without actually doing anything or learning a single thing.
There is a decent amount of people that prefer Indian over any of the other blanket terms. There’s a couple year old cgp grey video that talks about it “Indian or Native American? [reservatjons, part 0]”
At least in 2019, it was nearly universal, not entirely but nearly, that on reservations they identified as Indians secondary to their tribe over any other blanket term.
My tribe specifically is one of the reasons it’s “nearly.” My preferences are heavily influenced by growing up within the tribe and the majority of people I’ve had personal experience with in my tribe will refer to themselves by tribe first, native second, and identify with the term native more than Indian.
Famousone seems to have experience otherwise, and in one of my above posts I mention my own experiences where we both know people who prefer the term “Indian” over “Native American” as well as people who prefer neither and would rather be identified by tribal affiliation.
Of course to some extent I am sure there may be generational relationships between identity preferences- we see this with many groups where older generations may have a preference for a certain identity while younger ones may prefer another or create a new identity.
If an individual or specific group/sub group tells us how they identify themselves, we should try to respect it as best able. That’s my own opinion anyway.
I'm asking because that doesn't really seem to be as much of a thing here in Canada, and I'm thinking it might be a regional thing.