Personally, is say yes. The difference would be something along the lines of ..
Forgetting would be not recognising were you come from and probably just repeating the behaviours we where taught by society, not understanding why those behaviours are detrimental to ourselves and the people around us.
Unlearning, on the other hand, would be recognising that some of the behaviours we've learned aren't good for us and the people we love and avoiding them, and eventually replacing them, makes us better people.
@guest_ can probably put it better.
I think @karlboll described the conceptual differences well.
The short simple version os that forgetting doesn’t have a learning component where as unlearning does. The longer version-
To add some detail: forgetting is where information (like memories) are removed from the brain and will inevitably result in some changes in our cognition as a consequence, but the primary purpose is to remove that information- usually because it has negative emotional associations or was consciously/subconsciously labeled as unimportant to retain.
Unlearning is a process where we undergo cognitive changes, but not as a consequence, as a purpose. The primary purpose of unlearning isn’t to remove information, it is to replace established cognitive structures with new ones, such as changing a behavior or habit or “world view” etc.
Hmmm…. Better is a relative term, and context is again key. In psychology “unlearning” is an established word and concept, so discussion stemming from that concept would generally best be served by using the language.
In the simplest and casual use we are talking about “change” but change is a general word and so we’d have to qualify the type of change and mechanism of change to achieve the same precision we can get using the word “unlearning.”
In psychology unlearning is an established concept and word, so the fact it already exists and is understood often makes it situationally the “best” word for many cases.
There are alternate more verbose phrasings that can be used- but these each have their issues with precision as well.
What is again CRITICAL to the concept is that we are replacing existing processes or habits deemed undesirable with new versions as opposed to simply removing something or simply adding something.
If you are making soup and a dead poo covered rat falls in you can:
>Remove the rat and serve the soup- but the soup is still likely tainted no?
>Add a bunch of spices that cover the taste and smell of the rat and serve the soup. But the soup still is tainted no?
> remove the rat and add spices to cover the smell and taste. Still same
Problems.
>Remove the soup and make a new soup that doesn’t have a poo rat in it, making changes to ensure you don’t get poo rat in your stew.
The first example is removing only, second is adding only. Third is add and remove. The fourth is unlearning. Changing or washing the pot and using a new soup along with steps you learned to keep the soup from being poo rat soup.
It’s an imperfect example, but it fits the concept.
With that established-
Linguistically we have many synonyms for unlearn or at least pseudo synonyms or analogs, but there is no singular word I am aware of which conveys the precise meaning of the word and the distinction between adding/removing/replacing/unlearning.
In casual conversation if you you want to forget something, or you say you plan to change or plan to “quit doing something” etc. most people will understand your general meaning most likely.
In psychology unlearning has specific meaning and is established and in use, so it is generally the best word to use unless or until someone makes another word that people feel is better suited.
There may be words better for the task which I am unaware of as well- but in my knowledge there isn’t a singular and universally superior word for the concept.
To be clear though- “best” is a relative thing. For precision you could use phrases like “developing and employing new mental models for use in supercession of mental models deemed undesirable for optimal results in a specific context” or something- but that’s way wordier than “unlearning.”
As said earlier though- we don’t always need that level of precision or maybe we are limited in time etc. or need to speak to a specific audience. In those cases other words may be “better.” Saying “I plan to unlearn my behaviors surrounding alcohol consumption” would generally be considered an odd answer to “what is your New Years resolution” compared to “I’m going to quit drinking so much.”
@garlog- I think there may have been a misunderstanding-y original post reads that FORGETTING doesn’t involve a learning component- that is to say that to forget something does not require you to learn something new.
You can forget something like what you came into a room for without replacing that information with new information.
Unlearning DOES contain a learning component- this is the paradox karlboll refers to- that despite the name “unlearning” implying the loss of learning, you are actually learning new things.
To elaborate- many people think of the brain as a computer and think of it in those terms- like your memory is a “file” and something you remember- like the face of your best friend, is stored like a jpeg- the idea that somewhere in your brain there is an actual picture as information.
Everything we know about the brain says this is false. As a fun fact- through history people have described the function of the brain based off whatever “advanced” technology they had at the time- at various points in history for example the brain was compared to the workings of a clockwork mechanism and other types of technology at other points.
This can help people grasp concepts of the brain and mind but is also misleading. The brain (based on what we know) isn’t a computer. It doesn’t “process” as much as it experiences.
Instead of files like a computer, information is stored in the physical structure of your brain. A memory is a physical object that changes the shape of your brain. Electrical impulses travel through your brain and based on a bunch of factors concerning the impulses themselves and the path they take and other things, they produce different results- different “thoughts” or “emotions” along with a cycle of cause and effect concerning the release of or reaction to various chemicals like neurotransmitters that bind to receptors in the brain or act on it. It’s all very complex and still not entirely understood or proven- but that’s a basic overview of our understanding of the “nuts and bolts” of how the brain works.
So something that scares you very badly and triggers a powerful response from your body that makes you fear for your life for example- evolution prioritizes that as a memory, things that “harm us” or dangers are things our brain wants to make sure to take note of to help us avoid. That event will form a bunch of new paths through the brain and change lots of structures. Deep memories will be created and those will likely be linked via new paths to other structures that hold information we stored about the event- smells, sounds, time of day, people, sights etc. those new paths that let’s say link the color red or the smell of a forest to an intense experience in the future might now pass straight “through” that bad memory and trigger feelings of panic or fear or unease. This is a basic explanation of trauma or PTSD.
Because that trauma is linked to other things beyond just that exact memory, things that our brain linked to it either because it flagged them as related and as signs of danger etc, or because our brain was confused and “panicked” and accidentally lumped some stuff in- the way we think and perceive things has not changed. Those changes will impact our behaviors going forward, those changes to behavior will bring experiences and reinforce connections.
Our brains often dispose of connections they deem unneeded. That’s why we tend to forget certain things like math we learned in school and never used or how to play a song on an instrument or whatever- for various reasons some things (not just bad memories) form stronger connections so we may keep those forever- like maybe we still remember our childhood phone number or the combos for a fighting game from 1992. In general though- the brain does some housecleaning to keep things efficient and relevant.
Paths we use frequently or that have been labeled important to survive or thrive tend to stick around and actually get stronger over time- the more we use a pathway the more or builds- that’s part of how we get better at things or more efficient via practice. It’s also why practice doesn’t make perfect- PERFECT practice makes perfect. If you practice a skill a billion times that pathway becomes very strong, to repeat the exact action you’ve done a billion times. If you do that action improperly though- like you’ve practiced singing a song but always gotten the words wrong, singing those words wrong is going to be baked in to the physical structure of your brain- and baked in REALLY well if you’ve done it so much.
Forgetting the song would be difficult but likely possible, but if your goal was to sing the song correctly and well, forgetting it would be a poor choice. To unlearn the incorrect part would be the goal. To keep the parts you’ve practiced and excel at like the pitch and notes and melody etc, but replace the wrong words with the correct words.
That requires essentially reshaping your brain.
We can apply this to things weightier than a song- most addicts won’t ever completely forget addiction- it changes the brain and forms powerful lasting pathways and mechanisms involving the brain. They can however possibly overcome their addiction by unlearning behaviors. These things are rarely “on their own,” people usually have triggers like stress or certain events and places and people etc. that tie in to those behaviors.
A smoker who smokes on break by the dumpsters at work everyday is likely to feel strong cravings to smoke if they try to quit and hang around the dumpster.
A drinker who always has beer with pizza will likely feel a strong urge to drink when they eat pizza if they try to quit drinking.
Even if they forget beer and they forget pizza, if they have pizza it will likely trigger that impulse to drink because those things were so strongly connected.
Instead it is usually most successful to use various methods to help you to unlearn those associations and/or create new associations.
If you used to smoke on break you can try having a lollipop on break or chewing a toothpick. Both are popular aids in that process.
If you are used to getting off work and having a giant slice of cake when you get home, having some fruit and maybe a little bit of cream instead.
Now- it’s not the same obviously. But that’s part of unlearning. Many foreigners find many American snacks disgusting. Very rich, overly sweet, artificial taste and texture. Even American bread- like plain white bread we make sandwiches with- many foreigners think it’s very sweet and more a cake than a bread.
Those people come from places that tend not to use as much sweetener and don’t use artificial sweeteners much or at all. They have different palates. Your palate is partially inherent but partially acquired- most kids hate the taste of beer but lots love it when they grow up. Tastes change. So going from eating cake everyday to finding cake disgustingly sweet can be a matter of unlearning your food preferences- basically training yourself to see sweetness in a different way.
Well that was a hell of a tangent that I had to try real hard to not to just respond with tl:dr, but the gist is that unlearning involves "replacing" learned... behaviours?
I would say that is correct but not complete. It’s a functionally workable definition as long as you don’t try to go too deep using it.
Akin to how organizing the garage involves cleaning it, but there is more to organizing the adage than just cleaning it.
In most cases where we don’t need to be overly precise, we can probably just say we are cleaning the garage to convey the basic idea of what we are saying, and it will work fine.
Unlearning can involve replacing learned emotional responses or thought processes as well, and by changing the emotional responses or thought processes that inform our behaviors our behaviors can ultimately change as well.
So someone who is very envious may change their behavior because it is causing them problems and making them disliked.
They may act like they are friendly and happy towards you but inside hate you and feel all sorts of negative things. That wouldn’t be unlearning- just social deception.
Unlearning would be a process by which they analyze why they feel that way and work at changing the WAY they think so they can change HOW they think. Then their behavior changes more organically- they don’t have to force themselves to wear a mask and walk around feeling one way but acting another.
What you “replace” isn’t always a substitution like drinking water when you want soda- it is more like replacing the desire or reliance on soda- perhaps by “replacing” your priority for flavor with a priority for health, or by “replacing” your preference for sweetness etc.
Unlearning can be said to be the process of changing how you think in order to change your behavior. In simple terms.
Forgetting would be not recognising were you come from and probably just repeating the behaviours we where taught by society, not understanding why those behaviours are detrimental to ourselves and the people around us.
Unlearning, on the other hand, would be recognising that some of the behaviours we've learned aren't good for us and the people we love and avoiding them, and eventually replacing them, makes us better people.
@guest_ can probably put it better.
The short simple version os that forgetting doesn’t have a learning component where as unlearning does. The longer version-
To add some detail: forgetting is where information (like memories) are removed from the brain and will inevitably result in some changes in our cognition as a consequence, but the primary purpose is to remove that information- usually because it has negative emotional associations or was consciously/subconsciously labeled as unimportant to retain.
Unlearning is a process where we undergo cognitive changes, but not as a consequence, as a purpose. The primary purpose of unlearning isn’t to remove information, it is to replace established cognitive structures with new ones, such as changing a behavior or habit or “world view” etc.
Do we not have a better word for this, though?
In the simplest and casual use we are talking about “change” but change is a general word and so we’d have to qualify the type of change and mechanism of change to achieve the same precision we can get using the word “unlearning.”
In psychology unlearning is an established concept and word, so the fact it already exists and is understood often makes it situationally the “best” word for many cases.
There are alternate more verbose phrasings that can be used- but these each have their issues with precision as well.
If you are making soup and a dead poo covered rat falls in you can:
>Remove the rat and serve the soup- but the soup is still likely tainted no?
>Add a bunch of spices that cover the taste and smell of the rat and serve the soup. But the soup still is tainted no?
> remove the rat and add spices to cover the smell and taste. Still same
Problems.
>Remove the soup and make a new soup that doesn’t have a poo rat in it, making changes to ensure you don’t get poo rat in your stew.
The first example is removing only, second is adding only. Third is add and remove. The fourth is unlearning. Changing or washing the pot and using a new soup along with steps you learned to keep the soup from being poo rat soup.
It’s an imperfect example, but it fits the concept.
With that established-
In casual conversation if you you want to forget something, or you say you plan to change or plan to “quit doing something” etc. most people will understand your general meaning most likely.
In psychology unlearning has specific meaning and is established and in use, so it is generally the best word to use unless or until someone makes another word that people feel is better suited.
There may be words better for the task which I am unaware of as well- but in my knowledge there isn’t a singular and universally superior word for the concept.
As said earlier though- we don’t always need that level of precision or maybe we are limited in time etc. or need to speak to a specific audience. In those cases other words may be “better.” Saying “I plan to unlearn my behaviors surrounding alcohol consumption” would generally be considered an odd answer to “what is your New Years resolution” compared to “I’m going to quit drinking so much.”
You can forget something like what you came into a room for without replacing that information with new information.
Unlearning DOES contain a learning component- this is the paradox karlboll refers to- that despite the name “unlearning” implying the loss of learning, you are actually learning new things.
Everything we know about the brain says this is false. As a fun fact- through history people have described the function of the brain based off whatever “advanced” technology they had at the time- at various points in history for example the brain was compared to the workings of a clockwork mechanism and other types of technology at other points.
This can help people grasp concepts of the brain and mind but is also misleading. The brain (based on what we know) isn’t a computer. It doesn’t “process” as much as it experiences.
Our brains often dispose of connections they deem unneeded. That’s why we tend to forget certain things like math we learned in school and never used or how to play a song on an instrument or whatever- for various reasons some things (not just bad memories) form stronger connections so we may keep those forever- like maybe we still remember our childhood phone number or the combos for a fighting game from 1992. In general though- the brain does some housecleaning to keep things efficient and relevant.
That requires essentially reshaping your brain.
We can apply this to things weightier than a song- most addicts won’t ever completely forget addiction- it changes the brain and forms powerful lasting pathways and mechanisms involving the brain. They can however possibly overcome their addiction by unlearning behaviors. These things are rarely “on their own,” people usually have triggers like stress or certain events and places and people etc. that tie in to those behaviors.
A drinker who always has beer with pizza will likely feel a strong urge to drink when they eat pizza if they try to quit drinking.
Even if they forget beer and they forget pizza, if they have pizza it will likely trigger that impulse to drink because those things were so strongly connected.
Instead it is usually most successful to use various methods to help you to unlearn those associations and/or create new associations.
If you used to smoke on break you can try having a lollipop on break or chewing a toothpick. Both are popular aids in that process.
Now- it’s not the same obviously. But that’s part of unlearning. Many foreigners find many American snacks disgusting. Very rich, overly sweet, artificial taste and texture. Even American bread- like plain white bread we make sandwiches with- many foreigners think it’s very sweet and more a cake than a bread.
Those people come from places that tend not to use as much sweetener and don’t use artificial sweeteners much or at all. They have different palates. Your palate is partially inherent but partially acquired- most kids hate the taste of beer but lots love it when they grow up. Tastes change. So going from eating cake everyday to finding cake disgustingly sweet can be a matter of unlearning your food preferences- basically training yourself to see sweetness in a different way.
Akin to how organizing the garage involves cleaning it, but there is more to organizing the adage than just cleaning it.
In most cases where we don’t need to be overly precise, we can probably just say we are cleaning the garage to convey the basic idea of what we are saying, and it will work fine.
Unlearning can involve replacing learned emotional responses or thought processes as well, and by changing the emotional responses or thought processes that inform our behaviors our behaviors can ultimately change as well.
They may act like they are friendly and happy towards you but inside hate you and feel all sorts of negative things. That wouldn’t be unlearning- just social deception.
Unlearning would be a process by which they analyze why they feel that way and work at changing the WAY they think so they can change HOW they think. Then their behavior changes more organically- they don’t have to force themselves to wear a mask and walk around feeling one way but acting another.
What you “replace” isn’t always a substitution like drinking water when you want soda- it is more like replacing the desire or reliance on soda- perhaps by “replacing” your priority for flavor with a priority for health, or by “replacing” your preference for sweetness etc.
Unlearning can be said to be the process of changing how you think in order to change your behavior. In simple terms.