Lucas ruined it first with the prequels. Disney just did what Disney does best: Take a story and dumb it down so even a mentally challenged six-year-old can follow.
worst part is disney could have done a lot better; they have some real winners and a track record of staying largely out of production decisions. but they choose trending directors savvy with popular hot button topics, experience optional, and fill their roster with characters that pander to marketable demographics.
no none of these things alone is particularly bad; inexperienced directors can absolutely make great movies, current events and popular politics can still make for good subject matter, and representation is important in deciding on the cast of characters.
that said, don’t pander in an insulting obvious way, actually be capable of writing a fucking story, and if you’re going to continue a saga make sure that you don’t trample on the efforts of your predecessors to try and make it new and refreshing. We don’t need our old heroes broken down or for the lore to be ignored, we need the story to continue.
A character that needs to put down other characters is not a strong character, it’s a bully. in efforts towards inclusivity, make sure the demographic you are trying to represent is not solely defined by their demographic, or else all you’re doing is making an insulting and obvious grab. and let your heroes have their flaws and be held accountable for their actions, like anyone else. let them struggle, let them grow, let them improve with effort.
the world needs more Ellen Ripleys, Fa Mulan’s (1999), and Sarah Connors. not more Rey Palpatines/Skywalkers/who-fucking-cares.
So firstly I’m going to agree with the original statement that the prequels suck despite their recent surge in popularity- and later that will support some things I’m gonna say most folks won’t like. Then I’m going to agree that Disney could have done better. Solo and Rogue One are far from perfect- but the “spin off” films- one behind the nostalgia 8-ball for casting a non Harrison Ford Han Solo- are objectively and generally accepted as better films than the core trilogy Disney made. I am going to partially agree that Disney messed up their bid to to be inclusive. I think that like much of the trilogy- they were half in and half out. The trilogy wasn’t unwatchable as far as family friendly” blockbusters go- but it was a lame duck. Most often things can be great for some or good for all- with some exceptions that are pretty universally great or terrible. The newest trilogy is neither. It’s middle of the road. It upset people who wanted representation and upset people who for whatever
Reasons ultimately didn’t. Rey isn’t such a bad character I think- The “untouchable chosen one” is a staple of the genre and we see it even in the original trilogy. Most or all the times we felt some real peril for the MC’s had to do with happy accidents or Meta film issues making those moments. If Rey had been a male- we can’t say- but I suspect the movies still would be poorly regarded, people would just be complaining less about representation being a part of why they were bad.
Of course it can be hard to get it “right” too- the character is too powerful or too weak, etc etc. ultimately- Rey’s biggest failing in my eyes was she had no real substance as a character. She had some vague pathos with her parents that was not really explored well or at all. She had a sudden romance with the galaxies patricidal “bad boy” emo- but what was drawing Rey along into a galactic war and personal show down against evil? Luke wanted to leave home and have adventures, he knew “Vader” killed his…
.. father and that the Empire killed his adopted parents/family. He had no home to return to and Obiwan knew who he and his sister were and was manipulating events to a degree because he knew Luke was probably their last and only shot. So what was Rey doing again? Getting Randomly caught up in things and being pushed forward by plot mostly. We didn’t explore really any politics or personal drama that a story about being dragged into a military conflict by friendship or a sense of duty etc. might entail. Lots of poor decisions and wether anyone can answer these questions or not- the fact myself and many others walked away not knowing or being able to remember WHY most of this was happening or to what end- it kinda proves the point that it’s just poorly done. Which we already know because we have eyes.
But the original was bad, it was going to be worse, and when Lucas got to remaster the original most people think it’s worse. Chance and market research along with other things “forcing” decisions gave us the classic trilogy we know. It is a simple and generic story and it was made for kids. They changed the fundamental story like making Luke’s future wife his sister and pairing her with Han after older audiences proved to be more receptive and carrying the cash. Most people I know who have never seen Star Wars and aren’t into hype who watched it have been disappointed. I understand though. I love all sorts of classics and things I grew up with- but most from a modern adult perspective are bad. Few kids shows are shows that adults would watch and enjoy unless they had those memories or the nostalgia of enjoying it when their minds were in a place where they’d find those things enjoyable. Star Wars, I love it. I can rattle off obscure trivia and specs for ships and equipment and…
.. all the “legacy” aka extended universe stuff- I’ve read the books, I’ve owned the toys, first and later ones too. A lot of the designs and concepts are cool. I enjoy Star Wars- but it’s just not objectively very good, especially if you are looking at it in 2020 and have 10+ hours to watch some sci-fi fantasy and have never seen any before- there are soooo many films and series that would be an objectively better use of time to watch. Star Wars is a cultural touchstone- for kids and even adults. A lot of the “value” that could come from watching it is being “in” and able to relate and converse in social situations or online. Of course, most people who haven’t seen Star Wars but have any exposure to pop culture can follow jokes or references and identify them because Star Wars is so ubiquitous that there’s hardly an English speaking person who doesn’t know the “twist” of Empire Strikes back or can’t recognize the most iconic ships as coming from Star Wars etc.
So I honestly think that the “new trilogy” will probably one day be accepted or even appreciated because the original wasn’t even very good but it is enjoyable and flashy fun. The prequels were bad CG and bad writing and bad pacing and bad plot and a lot of poor acting with a weak story that meanders all over and those are suddenly being pardoned. I doubt anyone will ever say that the most recent trilogy is the best work in the Star Wars media franchise- but I doubt the hate will last. Maybe I’m wrong- but…. I doubt it. That or Star Wars finally reached a point where the nostalgia was so strong that it was death spiraling. The point where people are so latched on to what was that they won’t accept anything else- but if you keep making the same thing people get sick of it and it dies off. Star Wars probably isn’t dying anytime soon- but there are very few truly long lived media franchises that remain extremely popular and don’t ever wax and wane.
So Star Wars may or may not be at tapping of waning where the fact it is a tradition and cultural touchstone are carrying it until it can find its feet or a new audience who lack the biases etc. who knows? They’re all pretty bad though. Some are just more fun.
Rey was the best part of the new trilogy... at least in TFA... then they slowly and painfully fucked up. I can't even watch RoS now. As a character she actually had some damn good potential, but nOoOo... all those mistakes in TFA were unfixable for the rest of that trilogy. RoS is so damn bad it made me tolerable of Jar-Jar in the prequels. The MCU and Star Wars are vastly different monsters when it comes to their heroes and villains though; the MCU has seriously psychologically fucked up people; with Star Wars it's usually black and white in the movies... except for Anakin for a movie in a half, then he goes back in black. At this point, I enjoy the MCU more for character dynamics and interactions more than the actual action. There's a moment in nearly every MCU movie now where I legit nearly cry, only to be laughing my ass of 10 sec later. Shang-Chi was prolly the one that didn't push me that far, but that's fine, his dad was a jackass. Parts of Eternals, as messed up the structure
of that movie was, has quite a few "rip your soul out" moments. Star Wars those moments seem to be 90% nostalgia for the music -_-... and the only way it makes any impact is if you're on shrooms or some shit.
lol. Well said and well phrased. I can get behind it by and large. Iron Man (1) was the last MCU film I thought was pretty great. There have been fun ones here and there, and a few emotional moments- though once they dropped a bunch of stuff like the End Game time travel and multiverse stuff it all completely lost my interest- “oh this person died ‘ultimate final death’ did they? Well… it’s not final. We know that. Somewhere they are fine…” etc. I also feel too many MCU tear jerkers hinge on death- like that’s the only way they can write for emotions. Pepper disappears and there’s a ship if I’ve ever seen one, but after how many films and years- the emotional pay offs around Stark and especially concerning Pepper are what… him almost dying/dying…? Very one note. The original Star Wars was formulaic but it did have some moves up it’s sleeve. I think the new Star Wars isn’t even one note. It’s no note.
Like you basically say- Rey started out with my interest. She’s from a desert world, orphan- ok. All very familiar but that’s a theme in the stories so ok. And she has a hint of mystery. What will she want? What will she find? Where will that take her? Who will she become…?
Aaaaand… she became… more or less the same person except she gained kick ass powers and isn’t so codependent anymore…? I guess that could be a cool story if they told us that story- but it’s just sort of something that happens. She goes on a journey but it doesn’t really take her anywhere. She learned… what did she learn? How did she learn it? A bunch of people she barely knew die and a couple she likes and…. There’s an island…? So…. Character development!!!
i used to hate the multiverse, but i'm surprised they actually made it a bit fun. "What if?" is amazing... freaking Ultron goes completely nuts once he gets the stones. I MEAN COMPLETELY NUTS. he makes Thanos look like a child saint. It's how it's supposed to eventually end, Ultron is destined to eventually win and go all AI with his lil robots. They've already done the math, all they can do is bide time against him. And yeah, OG Star Wars is straight up The Hero's Journey, which is fine... it knows it and it does it well. Just like Infinity War is The Hero's Journey from Thanos's perspective, which imo was the perfect framing for it.
She learned one thing: she has an incredibly fucked up grandfather... or father... or clone master guy, whatever the fuck Palpatine was supposed to be, like I said, I can't watch it. I've watched it one time and it pissed me off beyond belief. Forget the Star Wars part, it was just a bad movie. It was like watching Lake Placid vs Anaconda except less enjoyable, at least that movie knew it was stupid.
Lmao! I think you hit the nail on the head “Star Wars” wise. I was ok watching the film, but I just didn’t find it terribly enjoyable or would be like: “yeah. I feel like watching it…” like there are some “bad” movies or even BAD movies I might sometimes feel like watching. Nostalgia or maybe they are almost good or so close or have some moments or whatever- but no. If I have 2-6 or so hours I can watch something…. I’ll watch something else.
On the multiverses- I’m not against it. I also know that especially in the comics medium it leaves a lot of room for creativity and fan service and interesting ideas. Me personally, the “stakes” in a multiverse story are more nuanced or personal- what I mean is that we can say it doesn’t matter if XYZ dies because they can be brought back from another multiverse or whatever- but it does matter in the sense that one of those worlds will lose their version of that person- and it matters because they aren’t the same person. The closest real world examples might be cases like two very close, very similar twins. If you marry one, they die- you’d probably like their twin and at times or maybe even most of the time couldn’t tell the difference if they were similar enough. But… all the moments with THAT person are gone right? If you have a fish or dog etc. and got a new one that to you looked exactly the same and had the same quirks etc- if you had a connection to your old friend, you’d still
“Miss them.” It may seem nuanced and not picky and some might not see the big deal- I guess one way to put it is- if you died and were replaced by a multiverse you- YOU would “care” if you could. Even if the world can’t tell the difference AT ALL, for YOU, it’s done. No new memories or experiences. YOU never get to hug your loved ones again even if someone identical to you does because you don’t share a consciousness.
That sort of nuance is often not really a part of the types of stories that use multiverse resurrections, or the writing isn’t generally of a certain caliber to leverage the concept unless someone is predisposed to want to go along with it.
In comics I think it is part of the genre of certain types of comics and I don’t begrudge it. I think with how the MCU movies largely tried to set this semi realistic tone though- this feeling that it isn’t a “comic movie” and this could maybe be our world of technology and a few things were different- that it wasn’t a good way to go story wise. Marketing wise, much like comics it was probably the only readily achievable path to continuum if the stories and escalating the scale- episodic “the new bad guy” stories tend to require escalating stakes.
The heroes often need to get more powerful or it’s boring, to be a challenge villains need to out have advantage on the heroes. You can’t make 22 movies where every villains using cunning or turns the team on itself or infiltrates the government- it’s difficult to write those stories well as one offs let alone do it 20+ times and do it well and make it feel like anything but a new name and face on the same old villain. It’s also hard to sell the next film of it isn’t “bigger and badder.” People get desensitized if you don’t have ways to anchor things in plot, and the route many “shonen” style stories go is just to escalate- killing an MC is an ultimate “cheap trick” when you’ve ran out of ways to tug the heart strings, and brining them back is marketing.
So comics and when done well I’m ok with multiverses. They can be really cool. But for the tone of the MCU I found it broke the suspension of disbelief and the overall feel of the films or any weight they have. The other big problem for me- to call back to how multiverses have stakes because it isn’t the SAME you- the thing is that with how the Marvel multiverse works…. It totally can be. Because it is entirely possible and has even been done where through what is possible in an alternate universe that they actually resurrect characters in universes where resurrection is supposedly impossible.
Part of it is a little meta- but basically they created a situation where the writers can do anything they want. I generally don’t like that. Writers set rules for themselves. When they write well they can bend or break the rules and we won’t notice or mind- but the tension and suspense and mystery etc. of the story comes in part from wondering what will happen. How will the writer write themselves out of the mess they set up? What imaginative way that maybe you never would have thought of can they possibly move forward within the rules of the universe?
When you take those rules away, asides all the other potential problems and the overall disconnection of the audience, what you have is no longer a story in an sense of craft- it’s kids on a playground at recess just spouting whatever is cool.
“I have ultimate laser! It’s the strongest attack and nothing is stronger!”
“Well I have ultimate laser times 2! It’s stronger than ultimate laser by 2 times!”
“I have invincibility and ultimate laser 2can’t hurt me!”
“Well I have ultimate invincibility breaker ultimate laser 400!!!” And so on. “You’re dead because I hit you and you can’t be brought back when the demon beam hits you!” “I’m alive because the ultimate beat charm…” and so on. Those kids are having fun. Someone might enjoy watching them too. I don’t find that very fun as an adult. If the craft is immaculate but I don’t like the subject or characters or whatever I won’t like it generally, but the craft is important to me, the content is important, and when we go to film the effects and set pieces and editing and music etc. are there to sell the craft and plot/story/concept for me. I’m not someone who can forgive poor craft for great effects or mindless excitement and cheap tricks.
Bro, seriously watch "What If?", that is EXACTLY what Uatu does with Black Widow after Ultron goes age of Age of Ultron on her entire universe... and he breaks the Watchers rules in doing so. It's actually pretty interesting, cuz it becomes obvious when he does it he had planned to do it nearly the entire time.
And when i write I love writing myself into corners lol, it sparks that creativity if you aren't lazy about it... plus being trapped in a corner and just turning the situation into a bubble so there isn't a corner is funny.
or if you're R Kelly get trapped in a closet then get trapped in a prison, you can't fly no mo'... I know why the caged bird sings. Birds randomly shit on you though, not piss.
I'm gonna approach your kids with a trenchcoat and say "hey kids... wanna buy some sequels?" And lift my trenchcoat to reveal a bunch of DVDs of the new trilogy
no none of these things alone is particularly bad; inexperienced directors can absolutely make great movies, current events and popular politics can still make for good subject matter, and representation is important in deciding on the cast of characters.
that said, don’t pander in an insulting obvious way, actually be capable of writing a fucking story, and if you’re going to continue a saga make sure that you don’t trample on the efforts of your predecessors to try and make it new and refreshing. We don’t need our old heroes broken down or for the lore to be ignored, we need the story to continue.
the world needs more Ellen Ripleys, Fa Mulan’s (1999), and Sarah Connors. not more Rey Palpatines/Skywalkers/who-fucking-cares.
Of course it can be hard to get it “right” too- the character is too powerful or too weak, etc etc. ultimately- Rey’s biggest failing in my eyes was she had no real substance as a character. She had some vague pathos with her parents that was not really explored well or at all. She had a sudden romance with the galaxies patricidal “bad boy” emo- but what was drawing Rey along into a galactic war and personal show down against evil? Luke wanted to leave home and have adventures, he knew “Vader” killed his…
Aaaaand… she became… more or less the same person except she gained kick ass powers and isn’t so codependent anymore…? I guess that could be a cool story if they told us that story- but it’s just sort of something that happens. She goes on a journey but it doesn’t really take her anywhere. She learned… what did she learn? How did she learn it? A bunch of people she barely knew die and a couple she likes and…. There’s an island…? So…. Character development!!!
In comics I think it is part of the genre of certain types of comics and I don’t begrudge it. I think with how the MCU movies largely tried to set this semi realistic tone though- this feeling that it isn’t a “comic movie” and this could maybe be our world of technology and a few things were different- that it wasn’t a good way to go story wise. Marketing wise, much like comics it was probably the only readily achievable path to continuum if the stories and escalating the scale- episodic “the new bad guy” stories tend to require escalating stakes.
When you take those rules away, asides all the other potential problems and the overall disconnection of the audience, what you have is no longer a story in an sense of craft- it’s kids on a playground at recess just spouting whatever is cool.
“Well I have ultimate laser times 2! It’s stronger than ultimate laser by 2 times!”
“I have invincibility and ultimate laser 2can’t hurt me!”
“Well I have ultimate invincibility breaker ultimate laser 400!!!” And so on. “You’re dead because I hit you and you can’t be brought back when the demon beam hits you!” “I’m alive because the ultimate beat charm…” and so on. Those kids are having fun. Someone might enjoy watching them too. I don’t find that very fun as an adult. If the craft is immaculate but I don’t like the subject or characters or whatever I won’t like it generally, but the craft is important to me, the content is important, and when we go to film the effects and set pieces and editing and music etc. are there to sell the craft and plot/story/concept for me. I’m not someone who can forgive poor craft for great effects or mindless excitement and cheap tricks.