This one… Uhg. A lot to unpack, but you do realize that for most men height has traditionally been an issue with women right? Like- talk women tend to have a niche of people who like a taller woman but for the most part, most men prefer to date women who are shorter than them. Not all men- and lots of women do not care if a man is shorter either. But let’s first just address that the internet loves to talk about height in dating like women are the only ones who care. Statistically globally most average men are taller than the average woman among peers. Global average is men are 7% taller ok? So of course you don’t hear much about men not liking tall women- men don’t have to talk about it. For men of “average height” the statistical majority of women around them will be shorter so it isn’t an issue. It’s mostly Ken smaller than average in their peer groups that have issues with height because they are… smaller than average. So it isn’t an issue where men don’t care about height,
Men don’t need to worry as much about height because most men prefer a woman who is shorter than them and most average women in a group are shorter than the average men.
But let’s move on. Is it unfair? Yes? No? Both?
Men are allowed to have physical standards for women- few but the most radical sorts would suggest that if you don’t date a women who’s natural odors are those of spoiled fish and dairy mixed with onions and who doesn’t groom themselves or practice hygiene, who looks like a movie monster, that you are the devil in flesh. When people place physical appearance above all else we usually see them as shallow- but I mean- we all have our things. Now when a woman says “I don’t date men under X height”- this is often treated like a hate crime. She hasn’t unsuited shorter men, said they were worthless or mocked them- she just doesn’t date them- but it’s treated the same as if she’d said: “ewww. No thank you. Short losers are gross..” or something.
Now, a lot of people compare it to not dating “fat women” and how there is a double standard and how weight can be changed while height cannot… so here’s the thing- if someone says “I don’t date men under 6’..” the equivalent there is saying “I don’t date women over Xlbs.” Now, if you grasp reality you see the difference. Beyoncé has been seen as one of the most beautiful female performers of a generation but at times in her career has weighted between 175-200lbs. How weight looks depends alot on the type of weight, body type etc. your average “scrawny dad bod” male weighs around 200lbs while the average UFC fighter with their popping muscles weighs around 160-190 on a fight night. So height- if you’re 5’7” you are 5’7”. The end. You can look slightly taller or shorter based on bone structure or clothing choices but if you tell a person someone is 5’7” they can generally tell you what that looks like. Tell someone a person is 160lbs and…. Is that fat? If they are 5’ tall many might…
See it as thick, if they’re 4’3” most probably would think so. It would be obese medically. But like… if they are 7’+ at 160 they probably look like a bean pole right? But ok. Let’s say they are 5’6” and 160. Is that fat? Thick? Chunky? Chubby? Average? Well… we don’t know man. We don’t know. If they lift weights then 5’6” and 160 they could be pretty darn “skinny” with some shape and muscles. Wether genetics or American Express, larger butts and chests can make a person with a smaller frame and less mass weight more than you’d expect for their overall height and weight. So weight is a MUCH more subjective measurement. Look- what I think is “fat” or you differs. And what I think is tall or short and you think of as the same might differ too- but if you tell me someone is 4’ tall I can tell you I think they are short and be sure they are short because 4’ tall is f8cking short to me. If I tell you someone is 180lbs you have no modes if they are buff or skinny or shapely or what.
Unless you base your attraction for people on constructing suspension walkways or the dosage they need of a drug to get the there out of effect or wether they can ride in your home built small aircraft- you can’t really tell if you’d be attracted physically just on weight most of the time unless you specifically like extremely obese people (at any height on record 500lbs will be big) or you are…. Drum roll…. Concerned with height!!!! Yeah. Because if you like coat hanger skinny partners, 150lbs could be super skinny in someone tall enough, but if you “don’t date people over 160” you have disqualified anyone over a certain height and build.
Hence why it is stupid. Height gives me a useful metric to get an idea of physical appearance whereas weight is relative to height so can only be used to limit height- if you “don’t date over 160” you’re generally saying you prefer slim/average/chubby women based on your perspective- but 5’11” at 160 is not the same as 4’ at 160. The person who is attracted to one of those builds is often not attracted to the other, and if they ARE attracted to both… all you have done is use numbers to say: “I don’t date fat people.” Which- yes. That is pretty shallow but let’s not wallow because we are all shallow in our ways.
So there ARE practical reasons to not date larger people as GENERALIZATIONS. Now, one can be large and healthy so I’ll skip that tired debate. But… I’ve dated women who were legally (at the time they were called midgets, that is a slur now.) I have dated women with high BMI and large body fat percentages- one partner had severe weight gain following trauma and medical issues and was around 5’5” and 300lbs at one point. I’ve dated women with various legal “handicaps”
I’ve dated models and dancers and all sorts. I can say that in my experience there are certain considerations that relate to height and weight. My shortest and heaviest girlfriends both couldn’t ride certain rides at amusement parks. They both sometimes needed special accommodations or their sizes made certain activities or such more difficult or requiring more thought than otherwise. They both had trouble with things like king walks and such because they’re joints and other factors relating to their sizes.
So it isn’t fair to say that there are no practical reasons that one might not want to date a person who is heavier/larger. When someone tells me they don’t want to date someone with a certain physical or mental health condition because of what that means I get it. I’ve been there. I’ve done it. You can’t escape it. But here’s the thing….
Just like we talked about earlier where weight is relative to height but height isn’t relative as a metric…
Weight isn’t inherently indicative of lifestyle or ability. Lots of heavier people are active. Lots of heavier people don’t get tired easily or have issues. Lots of heavier people do eat healthy foods. So I can understand first hand how certain things that can come along with a heavier partner may not fit a persons life, but until you talk to the person and get to know them, you don’t know. If you think: “I don’t want to date a larger person because I’m very active..” well… they may be active too! “They eat junk and I eat clean..”
They may eat the same foods you do! So you sort of have to get to know a heavier person to know how they live and what ways if at all their weight impacts their lifestyle. But…
I don’t need to get to know you to know that if you can’t reach the top shelf at the supermarket and are past the age where you can hope for a growth spurt that you can’t reach the top shelf. I can tell before I’ve seen you that you won’t be able to see over the dashboard of my car without a booster seat or climb into my truck without a ladder. I can tell before I see you that if you try to pick me up and firman carry me that my feet will still drag the floor. So like… height tends to relate less to lifestyle and tends to be more minor- maybe you need a step stool in the kitchen to get the cereal or you can’t change a bulb in an apartment without a ladder? Not necessarily huge deals in a practical sense in the way some of the things relating to weight can be- but they might be huge deals psychologically.
Dude, just TELL her you're 6 ft - 2... she's not gonna ask if the "2" is inches or millimeters and as long as you don't correct her (always a mistake) you're good. Can even imply that the dash 2 represents a negative number if you're really 5ft 10inches. It's all about being honest... and sneaky.
Now to psychology- the strong theory is that women on the whole at leas to some degree do respond at a fundamental level to size in men. There is evolution at work there. Men who are bigger and stronger often have made better protectors at least in their ability to avoid trouble by scaring it off with their size of not because of strength or genetic factors. Of course that isn’t generally what we believe and what it seems most men evolved an interest in when looking for a female partner. But here is where things go sideways again. The interest in height comes mostly from an evolutionary or instinctual place whereas the interest in weight tends to be a social construct and aspect of conditioning.
So- through history the perception of weight and attractiveness has shifted, especially towards women, but in general. The ideal shapes and sizes for women has changed drastically. In mating, biologically we are seeking certain things that signal fertility and other factors. Weight is not a great determinar of various factors but can give some concepts in specific context to certain things. So by and large there isn’t necessarily this huge evolutionary push on weight in partner as the availability and quality of food, activity, etc. and socio económico factors relating to that tend to shape the view of weight when it comes to women especially across time. What has remained pretty constant overall? The idea of male suitability. From the earliest history to the modern age, we have stories and diaries and accounts and statues and paintings. While there have been blips here and there and all manner of niches and fads and such- overall the archetype is fairly consistent for a
male that is either peak attractive or would t likely have too much problem finding dates. Greek statues right up to magic Mike. He’s fit. How fit is subjective to the time and place and specific persons preferences, but signs of physical strength and capability are now and almost always attractive in men. Size. He’s bigger. Almost always. Almost across all history and culture. The man is big, bigger, and the man and woman tend to favor this. Part of being big is- he’s tall, while some cultores or times or individuals have found no limit to this, taller always being seen as more attractive, others have a concept of too tall and it varies.
The thing ti understand here is that the preference for weight or body fat composition flies all over the place by time period as to what is ideally attractive but height- through most of history across the globe the standard for men has been to be tall- at least taller than the women or average to tall among his peers.
So I mean- is it shallow? I don’t think that if you meet someone that them being taller or shorter should matter much in deciding if they’ll be a good partner. But shallow is when you can’t see past that. Preferring guys over a certain height isn’t shallow- you PREFER that, you aren’t saying that is the only thing you care about or that you won’t consider anyone else no matter how amazing they are because they are under that height. Refusing to date a person based on some singular physical attribute? Yeah. That’s probably shallow. Like if they were perfect for you in every way and you didn’t want to give them a chance because they weren’t tall enough- that’s probably shallow. Is it shallow? I can’t say it IS shallow because well… we all like what we like. We may prefer dark hair or dark eyes or light. We may prefer a certain style of dress or make up or hair style. We may like people with stockier builds or more delicate builds.
If you’re dating or in a relationship with someone, especially one that you want to perhaps go long term and result in a family and kids- you may need to have sex with them at some point. Many might argue that it is beneficial to WANT to have sex with them. And well, it is what it is. Why don’t heterosexual want to have sex with their own sex or why do homosexuals find their own sex attractive? Why do some people seem to gravitate towards blondes and some people like Leo seem to only date women to a certain age? Sometimes there is more behind it but sometimes that’s just… what it is.
I don’t need to explain to you why I am not attracted to you. Me not being attracted to you doesn’t mean you aren’t attractive, or means I am not attracted to you. We can meet people who fit our physical standards to a T and even who we get along with well and enjoy but we just… aren’t attracted. Maybe it’s pheromones or genetics or fate or whatever.
Of course there is the history and modern realities in differences between how men and women have been allowed in law or culture to express themselves. The values that have been forced upon us by gender and such to consider. We could name a long list of unfair standards between men and women- men are studs for sleeping around, wild oats, boys will be boys, presumption of infidelity and forgiveness and assumption that it is a woman’s responsibility or fault and so many more. The mothers role and choices of career and family, blah blah blah. to avoid what aboutism and stitch this up, the conclusions and tl:Dr….
Tl:Dr- it is a sad time indeed. Let me lay out all the complication above and cut through the bulkshit. This isn’t a gendered issue and you reprobates need to stop trying to create divides on issues that cross lines. You’re allowed to have preferences and standards in dating. I would advise not to conflate the two and I would advise that while people may feel badly when we reject them we don’t need to go to lengths to make them feel badly. You don’t need to know why I didn’t date you, and if it was because of your height I don’t need to tell you. If you press and must know or it comes up I don’t need to call you short I can just say I date taller people the same as I don’t need to call someone fat and can just say that they aren’t my type.
People like what they like. Some people are shallow but finding some things a preference isn’t shallow. Insisting they are required can be and considering them a bare minimum can be.
I think a notable thing here, is that for men, height is often more of an insecurity than weight and for women weight is usually more of and insecurity.
The two are pitted against each other because women expressing preference for taller men, makes some men who feel sensitive about their height lash out at a known insecurity of women. That’s why people don’t like it. It’s not a double standard—especially when you consider that tall women report all sorts of rejection by men who don’t want to date women taller than them. The opposite of “I don’t date short men,” is “I don’t date tall women.”
And, it is okay to not want to date women (or men) who are overweight—it’s just problematic when that preference is a smack back to ‘you’ve hurt my feelings.’ People are responding to the context, not the statement.
I think you speak wisely. It also illustrates how “fair” and “equitable” and “equal” and such an be tricky and nuanced. I won’t do a whole thing- I already wrote my big long comment above- but there is a lot of cultural and social and historical context when we discuss things like this. Whataboutism is a dangerous and foolish pursuit and we can’t compare suffering and rank it- but but a lot of “men’s advocacy” posts do come off as tone deaf or adversarial.
While we can’t judge suffering we can triage it, and in the quest for egalitarianism you usually don’t start by making sure the most privileged people are given the full vision of society first. Usually we start by focusing on the people with less privilege in a society and lift them up to a level of equivalency before we start trying to polish the last bit.
And I will quickly note that there ARE things that aren’t fair to men and some are VERY high triage items like family court attitudes and such for example.
That said, a lot of people will point out that their lives aren’t so great, maybe worse than many others, and that they have no privilege. It is very possible to have privilege and not notice. Almost every “far girl” I’ve known who has lost weight or vice versa has commented on the differences in treatment in general based on their weight. Some of the smaller girls I’ve known who have gained weight never realized that they had privilege from their size and considered themselves “average” or less until they gained weight and discovered society in general treats some people differently.
With that said though- if we ignore that some people don’t notice their privilege- my message to people of privileged groups who refuse to acknowledge their privilege and use their “average” or “below average” lives to illustrate it..
Do not confuse the fact that you have privilege with the fact you have failed to use it. You can have a college degree and still work as a Walmart greeter, just because you choose not to use the access that you have or can’t make things work for you doesn’t mean that you don’t have it.
I think you’re correct that maybe people don’t see their privilege. And, even if you do see it, quantifying the impact on your life can be very difficult.
But let’s move on. Is it unfair? Yes? No? Both?
Men are allowed to have physical standards for women- few but the most radical sorts would suggest that if you don’t date a women who’s natural odors are those of spoiled fish and dairy mixed with onions and who doesn’t groom themselves or practice hygiene, who looks like a movie monster, that you are the devil in flesh. When people place physical appearance above all else we usually see them as shallow- but I mean- we all have our things. Now when a woman says “I don’t date men under X height”- this is often treated like a hate crime. She hasn’t unsuited shorter men, said they were worthless or mocked them- she just doesn’t date them- but it’s treated the same as if she’d said: “ewww. No thank you. Short losers are gross..” or something.
I’ve dated models and dancers and all sorts. I can say that in my experience there are certain considerations that relate to height and weight. My shortest and heaviest girlfriends both couldn’t ride certain rides at amusement parks. They both sometimes needed special accommodations or their sizes made certain activities or such more difficult or requiring more thought than otherwise. They both had trouble with things like king walks and such because they’re joints and other factors relating to their sizes.
Just like we talked about earlier where weight is relative to height but height isn’t relative as a metric…
Weight isn’t inherently indicative of lifestyle or ability. Lots of heavier people are active. Lots of heavier people don’t get tired easily or have issues. Lots of heavier people do eat healthy foods. So I can understand first hand how certain things that can come along with a heavier partner may not fit a persons life, but until you talk to the person and get to know them, you don’t know. If you think: “I don’t want to date a larger person because I’m very active..” well… they may be active too! “They eat junk and I eat clean..”
I don’t need to get to know you to know that if you can’t reach the top shelf at the supermarket and are past the age where you can hope for a growth spurt that you can’t reach the top shelf. I can tell before I’ve seen you that you won’t be able to see over the dashboard of my car without a booster seat or climb into my truck without a ladder. I can tell before I see you that if you try to pick me up and firman carry me that my feet will still drag the floor. So like… height tends to relate less to lifestyle and tends to be more minor- maybe you need a step stool in the kitchen to get the cereal or you can’t change a bulb in an apartment without a ladder? Not necessarily huge deals in a practical sense in the way some of the things relating to weight can be- but they might be huge deals psychologically.
The thing ti understand here is that the preference for weight or body fat composition flies all over the place by time period as to what is ideally attractive but height- through most of history across the globe the standard for men has been to be tall- at least taller than the women or average to tall among his peers.
I don’t need to explain to you why I am not attracted to you. Me not being attracted to you doesn’t mean you aren’t attractive, or means I am not attracted to you. We can meet people who fit our physical standards to a T and even who we get along with well and enjoy but we just… aren’t attracted. Maybe it’s pheromones or genetics or fate or whatever.
People like what they like. Some people are shallow but finding some things a preference isn’t shallow. Insisting they are required can be and considering them a bare minimum can be.
The two are pitted against each other because women expressing preference for taller men, makes some men who feel sensitive about their height lash out at a known insecurity of women. That’s why people don’t like it. It’s not a double standard—especially when you consider that tall women report all sorts of rejection by men who don’t want to date women taller than them. The opposite of “I don’t date short men,” is “I don’t date tall women.”
And, it is okay to not want to date women (or men) who are overweight—it’s just problematic when that preference is a smack back to ‘you’ve hurt my feelings.’ People are responding to the context, not the statement.
While we can’t judge suffering we can triage it, and in the quest for egalitarianism you usually don’t start by making sure the most privileged people are given the full vision of society first. Usually we start by focusing on the people with less privilege in a society and lift them up to a level of equivalency before we start trying to polish the last bit.
That said, a lot of people will point out that their lives aren’t so great, maybe worse than many others, and that they have no privilege. It is very possible to have privilege and not notice. Almost every “far girl” I’ve known who has lost weight or vice versa has commented on the differences in treatment in general based on their weight. Some of the smaller girls I’ve known who have gained weight never realized that they had privilege from their size and considered themselves “average” or less until they gained weight and discovered society in general treats some people differently.
Do not confuse the fact that you have privilege with the fact you have failed to use it. You can have a college degree and still work as a Walmart greeter, just because you choose not to use the access that you have or can’t make things work for you doesn’t mean that you don’t have it.