I know people sometimes have strong opinions about this, and I know that snakes like live food, but it makes me so uncomfortable that people will feed live mice to snakes. They are still sentient creatures with feelings, no matter how limited. It just makes me so sad that they have to suffer this way, and also in pet stores, homes, and scientific labs.
I understand how you feel but some things are necessary. Snakes will eat mice in the wild anyway. It's all part of the food chain. I'm a scientist and I use mice in my research. I try hard to limit the number of mice I use as do most researchers. Very few researchers I know enjoy animal experiments but, for now, that's all we can do.
When I had my snake I tried to feed him dead thawed mice but he'd never eat them; he'd only eat live mice. What was I supposed to do, let my snake starve? If my snake didn't eat the mouse after like 30 minutes I'd set the mouse free... but that was a mistake. That started to cause a problem that we are still fighting.
It’s understabdable one might not feel comfortable feeding live mice to snakes. My advice would be the same as I would give a vegan uncomfortable to feed a cat meat- don’t get one in that case. I like mice more than snakes, but both are living creatures. Snakes eat mice. Buying dead mice isn’t humane to the mouse, it just saves the owner the guilt of knowing they were directly involved in its death. The guy who gives the order to kill someone is no less culpable than the one who pulls the trigger, they just don’t see the last moments of the victim. The company that sells frozen mice wouldn’t kill mice if people didn’t buy dead mice. Then again that mouse likely wouldn’t have been born to begin with, pets, animal experiments, and feed are basically the only reasons mice a bred- all end in death, and even a pet mouse will not likely have a family, and open territory. It will have a small cage and food, hopefully a friend or two that it is stuck with until it dies. It’s what it is.
All of these arguments seem to have ignored the fact that it is also a danger to the snake to put live mice/rats in the tanks with them. If we're using "in the wild" as an example, both of these creatures would have an opportunity to escape the situation, even if, for the prey's case, it often isnt successful. In a captive scenario, this is not a possibility. Both are trapped in a confined space.
Additionally, snakes-- particularly timid species such as ball pythons-- do not always strike at prey placed in tanks with them. This can rapidly become a problem if the prey animal turns even a little aggressive/gets curious/has the urge to gnaw. As observed in the post itself, this puts the snake at a huge risk to suffer very severe injuries in a very short amount of time, leaving it at risk for infection and death. While there are vets who can treat reptiles, they are far less common than those who specialize in mammals, further increasing the likelihood the animal will
Not recover in as timely a manner. And let's not even start on the issues injuries can sometimes cause during shedding.
Frozen/thawed are NOT always killed humanely, but they certainly CAN be, whereas putting one directly in a cage with a snake is not so different from putting a gladiator in a cage with a lion. One side is not going to get out alive, both are likely to suffer, and one will end in fear and pain.
Animals may end up in life-threatening situations often in the wild, but the animal's we're discussing are often captive bred and raised. In the wild wolves would hunt rabbit, deer, whatever else, but you're far from likely to throw your dog in a room with a rabbit and let them go at it. Snakes are not dogs, but they are still pets, and the rats/mice still living things. Some will never adapt to eating frozen/thawed. But many often can. If there's even a chance you can reduce the suffering of either animal, it seems worthwhile to take it.
Firstly- there is danger in putting live animals together. Especially when survival is on the line. It’s entirely possible, and happens- if one leaves the snake and mouse un supervised- the snake can be injured or killed by the mouse. But to argue against nature is faulty logic. The very nature of keeping a pet in captivity goes against nature and is outside the bounds of a nature that lacks human intervention. In nature you’re unlikely to find a heat lamp and climate that is optimized through direct control. It’s unlikely to find veteranians and medicine. You’re also unlikely to find large groups of mice being frozen or dying on a regular basis where a snake happens to live all on their own. There’s no precident in nature. Although it is possible if unlikely that the two animals may be effectively trapped together in nature through circumstance. Simply one can not argue “nature” when the whole point of pets is removing them from nature and making them part of human of human life.
That danger is exactly why after 30 minutes I'd remove the mouse. If I could do it all over again I would have put them both in the bathtub for "feeding time", not just because it's safer for the snake, but also.... mice pee and sometimes poop themselves when they die.. no reason to have that waste in the tank as well. Also, she was a ball python :)
Ideally neither animal would be. If one has a pet snake that will only eat live mice though- the options become limited, and aren’t free of ethical question. There’s still the ethical question of wether it’s any better to have someone else kill mice en masse so that you aren’t culpable. I can say that given the choice of death sentence between being caged, then frozen and killed- or being able to fight a giant snake and possibly survive- I can’t say either speaks to me, but if it were my life I’d likely choose the only choice that at least offers some chance I’d survive. A mouse of course is not given that choice, nor is known to be capable of fully grasping it, but the nature of most living things is that between certain death and unpleasant but possible survival we tend to choose to try and survive.
It is true, not all snakes will adapt to eating frozen/thawed. Many can, if they're exposed young enough, however, and few snakes will opt to starve to death if the conditions are properly mimicked. Not all, but most can adapt, given enough time. Many captive breeds of snake eat species of animals they would never encounter naturally in the wild simply due to their countries of origin. The prey they WOULD typically eat is often similar, but far harder to come by. However, due to the different scents they carry, if the snake is not exposed to the more readily available rats and mice, it may never properly learn to imprint on them, which can lead to a whole host of problems.
I'm in no way trying to imply you could have done something different to make your snake eat, by the way-- as I said, some never can shift to that lifestyle. I'm not sure what I'd do if mine ever went off frozen.
Snakes are ry simple, but highly specialized creatures. They do few things, but they do them well.
The plus side of captivity is it gives humans opportunities to better understand the creatures we share this planet with-- which, in turn, can help limit how much we make them suffer overall.
Mine is a decently shy girl, and from the moment I found her in the pet store, she's helped at least a dozen people who were scared or simply uneducated about snakes to take at least a little step closer to understanding them better.
I still remember the 6 foot, muscle bound guy who was absolutely terrified of snakes watching a little boy I'd let hold her, before finally working up the nerve to ask if he could as well. He even got his friend to take a picture.
I don't like needless death-- can't even kill spiders if there's another option-- but it's part of everything. Even if you're vegan, one of those people or animals you take joy in can only survive by killing something else. The best I hope for is minimizing the amount of suffering involved in my part of it
I'm sorry snake owners but no I would never have a snake. Ok first I really dislike them and is like my phobia. But that aside I would have a pet that I have to maintain in a small space. Second, like mentiones this mice don't have a chance. They live their lives confined to then be put in a small space with their predator. In the real, wild, world mice run free and if their time comes and get attacked by a snake or other predators well at least they had a chance to live. Same way i fell about hunting. If you hunt you better eat it, and farms. There is no reason why they should be so cruel to animals. I don't eat them. I understand most people do but geez at least don't torture them and try to be humane.
@xvarnah that"s a great way to look at it. I'm ok if i don't ever pet a snake though lol. But I wouldn't hurt one though or buy anything made out of their skin they suffer too
@funkmasterrex I don't take mine places anymore really since she doesn't enjoy it, but I've had lots of friends/family come by with their kids and such and it's always fun/rewarding to help them learn a bit more about a predator so commonly deionized in media. I still have people say "I thought she'd be slimy!"
@itsamemaria I don't see any reason to apologize for that. Snakes are, by no means, a pet for everyone. I think snakes are fascination, but I'd never own a large or venomous breed. Similarly, there's people who own tarantulas and scorpions and all I can think is "well, good on you then. I couldn't do that."
In regards to the mice, not all of them have horrible lives prior to euthanization. It certainly does happen, but its certainly not necessary or guaranteed. And, while I understand your point, not all animals dislike confinement when it brings security. Dogs seem to do alright with it. Cats as well, to a degree. My species of snake is renowned for hating large, open space
And usually it will cause a great deal of stress if they're not kept in fairly claustrophobic-seeming conditions.
Then, on the other side of the coin, you have animals like siamese fighting fish, which, while they do spend some of their lives in shallow puddles in the wild, naturally they live in rice paddies. Shallow water, yes, but very wide. And, while in puddles, they are capable of jumping from one puddle to another. They've been known to startle the crap out of owners who don't bother to keep a lid on their bowls when they leap out of them and wind up on the floor. And yet, Pet stores insist on telling people these animals are fine living in something the size of a cup their entire lives, which is not even remotely the case. The same thing happens to goldfish, which are fast growing fish that produce a lot of waste, and so often end up trapped in bowls too small, with water that dirties too quickly, and all chances of them having any quality of life are pretty much non-existant
Haha, yes, petting them isn't something everyone's up for. But at least you're open minding enough not to see them as mindless, villainous creatures.
Snakes suffer a great deal, like any other creature, but often it gets ignored because they're not an animal that's easily marketed to the public. Snake charmers, for example, would often rip the fangs from the animals' mouths. Snake charming had nothing to do with the animal responding to music-- snakes don't care about music. It was an animal confined in a basket, mutilated and in pain, still trying to defend itself from a human waving an instrument too near to the snake's face. No different than bears whose paws were Burned to force them to dance.
Indeed. And sadly it's far from the worst people do.
The fang thing is actually part of why this picture bothers me. The mouse is biting the snake. Yes, that's what mice do, and yes the snake is also biting the other mouse. Its neither animal's fault for doing what they need to survive. However, the keepers of the snake can and apparently are monitoring the situation-- precisely in case something like this happens. But instead of intervening they stopped to take pictures. The issue created now is that this snake is literally helpless. Feeding can be a very stressful period for snakes. With their mouths full, they have no way to defend themselves. Their only option is: continue trying to eat, or regurgitate their meal. Both options take time. Regurgitation is also highly stressful for snakes-- especially if their meal is already in their stomach.
It puts strain on their bodies and removes essential nutrients that they likely won't be able to recover in a timely fashion. Eating also makes them slower than they normally would be. A snake's only defence systems are it's mouth and it's speed. Feeding eliminates both. This is why i think two live feeders should never be in the terrarium at the same time. And the people watching should have intervened the moment the mouse got aggressive. In this situation I don't believe it would take much for the mouse's teeth or claws to puncture the snake's head or eye, and it's an entirely unnecessary amount of strain to put on either animal. Which brings us full circle I guess
I feel disturbed when people feed live mices to snakes. I understand it is the nature of animals to hunt and kill. However, it doesn't have to be this way when you feed a pet snake. Why must the mice made to suffer? Is it so that the human can enjoy the show?
Animals are born without choice to be predators or preys, such is nature. In contrast, human have the option to choose. It saddens me to see people create senseless violence and watch sentient creatures die for fun.
I certainly never enjoyed the show.... I watched it to make sure my snake wasn't injured (he was once and I sprinted a half mile towards a target so I could get the cell phone for the vet)... the rest' look at my above comment.
I applaud @funkmasterrex. I knew many snake owners who “enjoyed the show” of feeding as opposed to seeing it as an unpleasant reality. I personally don’t enjoy watching animals eat each other, I don’t find entertainment in watching snakes eat live or dead prey. The fact is however that no matter how uncomfortable reality makes us- some things are beyond our control, and like “carbon credits” we can try to offset harm, or shift our guilt, but when you feed something meat or eat it- unless you cloned a mindless hunk of meat- something suffered or died regardless. Animals do get to “choose” to be predators or prey. We are all born with strengths and weaknesses. Prey animals are simply those that get eaten. Nice kill snakes too. Not every mouse will. That’s how evolution works. The strong are meant to survive and pass genes to make the species stronger. No one wants to be eaten (well... maybe some parasites etc.) someone’s gonna do the eating, and someone is getting eaten.
This is so sad! I particularly, really dislike snakes and hate they are given alive mice. I know it is like that in the wild but the thought of both animals just being there so close together and the mouse knows it and is trying to hide.... ugh now I would just think about that today. Mighty mouse though! Good mouse
Additionally, snakes-- particularly timid species such as ball pythons-- do not always strike at prey placed in tanks with them. This can rapidly become a problem if the prey animal turns even a little aggressive/gets curious/has the urge to gnaw. As observed in the post itself, this puts the snake at a huge risk to suffer very severe injuries in a very short amount of time, leaving it at risk for infection and death. While there are vets who can treat reptiles, they are far less common than those who specialize in mammals, further increasing the likelihood the animal will
Frozen/thawed are NOT always killed humanely, but they certainly CAN be, whereas putting one directly in a cage with a snake is not so different from putting a gladiator in a cage with a lion. One side is not going to get out alive, both are likely to suffer, and one will end in fear and pain.
Animals may end up in life-threatening situations often in the wild, but the animal's we're discussing are often captive bred and raised. In the wild wolves would hunt rabbit, deer, whatever else, but you're far from likely to throw your dog in a room with a rabbit and let them go at it. Snakes are not dogs, but they are still pets, and the rats/mice still living things. Some will never adapt to eating frozen/thawed. But many often can. If there's even a chance you can reduce the suffering of either animal, it seems worthwhile to take it.
I'm in no way trying to imply you could have done something different to make your snake eat, by the way-- as I said, some never can shift to that lifestyle. I'm not sure what I'd do if mine ever went off frozen.
Snakes are ry simple, but highly specialized creatures. They do few things, but they do them well.
Mine is a decently shy girl, and from the moment I found her in the pet store, she's helped at least a dozen people who were scared or simply uneducated about snakes to take at least a little step closer to understanding them better.
I still remember the 6 foot, muscle bound guy who was absolutely terrified of snakes watching a little boy I'd let hold her, before finally working up the nerve to ask if he could as well. He even got his friend to take a picture.
I don't like needless death-- can't even kill spiders if there's another option-- but it's part of everything. Even if you're vegan, one of those people or animals you take joy in can only survive by killing something else. The best I hope for is minimizing the amount of suffering involved in my part of it
@itsamemaria I don't see any reason to apologize for that. Snakes are, by no means, a pet for everyone. I think snakes are fascination, but I'd never own a large or venomous breed. Similarly, there's people who own tarantulas and scorpions and all I can think is "well, good on you then. I couldn't do that."
In regards to the mice, not all of them have horrible lives prior to euthanization. It certainly does happen, but its certainly not necessary or guaranteed. And, while I understand your point, not all animals dislike confinement when it brings security. Dogs seem to do alright with it. Cats as well, to a degree. My species of snake is renowned for hating large, open space
Then, on the other side of the coin, you have animals like siamese fighting fish, which, while they do spend some of their lives in shallow puddles in the wild, naturally they live in rice paddies. Shallow water, yes, but very wide. And, while in puddles, they are capable of jumping from one puddle to another. They've been known to startle the crap out of owners who don't bother to keep a lid on their bowls when they leap out of them and wind up on the floor. And yet, Pet stores insist on telling people these animals are fine living in something the size of a cup their entire lives, which is not even remotely the case. The same thing happens to goldfish, which are fast growing fish that produce a lot of waste, and so often end up trapped in bowls too small, with water that dirties too quickly, and all chances of them having any quality of life are pretty much non-existant
Snakes suffer a great deal, like any other creature, but often it gets ignored because they're not an animal that's easily marketed to the public. Snake charmers, for example, would often rip the fangs from the animals' mouths. Snake charming had nothing to do with the animal responding to music-- snakes don't care about music. It was an animal confined in a basket, mutilated and in pain, still trying to defend itself from a human waving an instrument too near to the snake's face. No different than bears whose paws were Burned to force them to dance.
The fang thing is actually part of why this picture bothers me. The mouse is biting the snake. Yes, that's what mice do, and yes the snake is also biting the other mouse. Its neither animal's fault for doing what they need to survive. However, the keepers of the snake can and apparently are monitoring the situation-- precisely in case something like this happens. But instead of intervening they stopped to take pictures. The issue created now is that this snake is literally helpless. Feeding can be a very stressful period for snakes. With their mouths full, they have no way to defend themselves. Their only option is: continue trying to eat, or regurgitate their meal. Both options take time. Regurgitation is also highly stressful for snakes-- especially if their meal is already in their stomach.
Animals are born without choice to be predators or preys, such is nature. In contrast, human have the option to choose. It saddens me to see people create senseless violence and watch sentient creatures die for fun.