It's not that he's scared of 'false' rape accusations. Everyone has a lingering fear of that.
He's scared that he doesn't know the boundaries between flirting and sexual harrasment / rape
I really have to disagree with you on that point. I understood his statement to mean that if he wanted to date someone, and she said no but he continued to pursue her, it would be taken as a rape or assult charge, instead of being seen as genuine interest. I get where he is coming from because I am little more old fashioned in that if I initially decline a dating relationship, I would certainly want my choice respected, but I would want him to continue to pursue me, to show that I am worth the effort.
@fell_equinox glad someone said it.
How about we just start teaching everyone, not just men, that saying no means no, not "please, continue until one or both of us regrets this" if you're saying no, but expecting him to continue, you're part of the problem
My point exactly. We arent children, we are grown women. Stop playing games and tell a guy how you feel. If you're not interested say no, if you ARE then say yes and stop stringing the poor guys around
Agreed. There are women who like to be pursued, and there are men who like to pursue, and they even lose interest when the woman expresses reciprocity "too soon". I personally find it strange, but some people like it and I'm obviously not gonna tell them to change their kink.
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But it's good that men nowadays are realizing that not every woman, in fact not even most women, are like that. Some years ago, "she's just playing hard to get" was usually the default assumption upon rejection, which resulted in a lot of uncomfortable, borderline stalker situations for many women. It's good that men are now realizing that making that assumption and pursuing someone who's clearly not comfortable with it may not be a good idea. I agree with Cavill that unwanted flirting shouldn't be branded as sexual assault, though. It dillutes the meaning and makes actual rape victims seem unserious.
You want people to learn a no is a no
And when they do, you complain that they should try harder? Wtf is wrong with women
And ofc he's scared
Who doesn't? Especially when you're famous with cash
Think, if a person goes "have you heard? Henry C. Raped ..." how many people will respond with "do you have reliable sources of information?" And how many of them will just "omg! That's crazy"
False rape accusations have ruined so many people lives, it's not something anyone can take lightly
You can't pin this one on women, you really can't. It takes two to tango. Some women like to play hard to get, sure. Now I would argue that nowadays they're in a minority (in my experience), but let's leave that aside. Similarly, some men lose interest when a woman expresses her interest "too soon". They wanna pursue her, they like the game more than they like the reward. So if a woman is genuinely interested, she either has the choice to play this stupid game, risking that she confuses and loses the man, or just say that the feelings are reciprocal, risking that the man loses interest.
So just don't pin this on women when men are just as guilty.
Ok let me tell you a story when I have clearly defined something as sexual assault. I was at a concert with my roommates and their friends and I was having fun and I felt one of their friends grab my hips and press me against them and I grabbed their hands and flung them off of me and moved somewhere else. I didn't know this person, but they didn't do it again and although I was uncomfortable, I didn't define that as sexual assault, only as an uncomfortable experience. However, when I was with them at a club, there were guys who were flirting with us and wanted us to dance with them, but we always switched positions in the circle so they would leave us alone. Now, one guy did the same thing that happened to me before, I didn't know him and he grabbed me and pressed me against him and again, I threw his hands off and moved. Again I was uncomfortable, but not assaulted. I didn't see him again after a while and we decided to go to a different room and I was walking behind them when
I felt someone grab me from behind again, while I was walking, and put their hand on my front (upper crotch area) trying to lead me to back up against them. It was them same guy who grabbed me before, and who I said no to with no language involved. I screamed "fuck off" at him the second time. THIS INSTANCE WAS sexual assault. Not the first time you say no, but the second time. If you feel ignored, that your wishes were deliberately discarded, and you were touched in a sexual manner THAT is sexual assault.
@jensensbooty sometimes the first time you say no IS assault. However, I can agree with you that, in certain situations, the first time can be written off. I've known women who have had the exact or very similar things happen to them as you described-- one of whom told the guy to stop. He was a LOT bigger than her, and his response to her was "what are you going to do about it?" I've had groups of guys bang on the glass doors of pubs I've been in and mouth "I want to fuck you," through the glass in a threatening enough manner that I ended up calling someone to come pick me up.
All that in mind, alot of comments I hear people freaking out about I'd say can be written off, as well. Not *all* of them, but a lot of them.
Not every single thing that happens, even when its offensive, is assault. But not everything isn't, either.
It's tricky for both sides. But generally, most of us DO know what kind of behavior is likely to be considered offensive at all times.
If there's ever a moment where you're having any doubt about putting your hands on someone, just pretend you're at Supermarket. Or your grandma is watching you. If you wouldn't do it in either of those scenarios, you're probably better off not doing it now. Or just don't do it
If there is ever any expression of discomfort and the behavior continues or, worse, escalates, then the person is now saying "Im aware of your feelings/rights in this matter, and I do not care. I will violate them anyway."
Yeah, the thing is I don't want to be that overreactive bitch that also brings her personal trauma everywhere because she was assaulted before both of those times too. I felt violated the first time those guys grabbed me, but that is a very grey line and I don't want to be that person that guys are scared of. The first experience I just write it off as an uncomfortable experience rather than assault
I get that entirely. And I don't disagree. That's why I said sometimes. Context is very important. Like a lot of people do go clubbing etc specifically looking for hookups. This doesn't mean it's open season on everyone in the club, but people being a little more forward is kind of expected. Wrong or right, I'd personally be way less inclined to flip shit on a guy that like slapped my ass once in this scenario than if it happened in like walmart or something just because of the setting.
Still, I think either of them graBbing you and putting your body against theirs is taking things a bit too far considering they don't know you, and if they wanted to dance theres other ways it could be approached. But aftermath also counts. If a guy or girl does something (within reason) moderately inappropriate, but I make it clear that, no, that's not okay, and they apologize or move on, then we'd usually be good. It's, as you say, the second time round that's usually the problem.
Then there's scenarios like guys sticking cameras up skirts or their hands in someone's panties and it's like you shouldn't even have to be TOLD once that that's not okay.
Tbh I never would have guessed you'd been assaulted from your commentary so far. It seems like you've got a fairly level headed way of thinking about it, though. I mean, there's PTSD, and then there's grudges, and it takes a very strong person to be able to differentiate and evaluate after something like that.
Not that you need my freaking validation ffs.
Women and men should not be afraid to interact with each other plain and simple, and there has to be a way to accomplish that goal out there somewhere. We're probably just too far in the thick of it at present times to see how much closer we've gotten to it or not
For sure I completely agree. And thank you so much that means a lot to me. My first assault was 4 years ago so I had time to process it a lot and I didn't even know it was assault until a couple of years after it happened. I was carrying all this shame and guilt and had to process things logically with my therapist. And for sure my PTSD did come up in both of these instances, and I went back to square one after the second assault. But I think people who have been assaulted need to be the ones speaking about this issue and sharing their stories on where the boundaries were crossed. Because, you're right, men and women should not be afraid to interact with each other and I think SJW Jane who says that men shouldnt be allowed to hug women without consent has way less authority than a woman who has actually been through a sexual assault and processed the trauma and is speaking about boundaries.
Well it's nothing but the truth. I've been fortunate enough In my life to have situations like this limited mostly to verbal harassment, and sometimes that's difficult enough to deal with-- especially if a person of authority puts you in that position. I can't imagine how much worse it would be going through whatever you went through-- and then having it triggered again by someone being carelessly aggressive for no good reason.
And, while it certainly doesn't define you, I do think what you went through lends more weight to your opinion, also. A lot of people think their outrage should be justified just because they claim it on behalf of someone else (I probably have been guilty of this at some point, though hopefully not so ridiculously). And that's not always the case.
If the person who *survived* the incident isn't as outraged as you are, maybe, it might be a good idea to pause your reaction, and consider whether you should respect that or not
Cuz some girls say no and expect the guy to keep chasing them cuz they enjoy it so how the hell are we supposed to know when no actually means no. Quit playin games. If someone doesn’t seem interested I think a little pursuit is still acceptable but if they still show no interest or say no again then that’s when you stop.
People will play hard to get. People will text other people right in front of you to let you know that you're "nothing special" to them. "Playing it cool" is the thing to do now. Of course he's going to feel weird pursuing someone. Then its going to be told that he's a douchebag or a player, all because he doesnt want to make people uncomf.
He said something honest and understandable. If you cannot at the very least understand where he is coming from, maybe YOU don't understand part of the problem. The world is filled with so much disrespect, poor guy has no clue if someone is playing hard to get or doesnt want his attention at all. Maybe we should stop this whole playing with people's emotions thing while we're at it and maybe he wouldnt feel like hes walking on eggshells
Yes let us teach everyone that rape is bad.
Oh wait we do already and is also a crime with a prison sentence.
Maybe we should start to teach people that FALSE rape accusations are bad and should also be a crime. If someone starts again with the argument "women never lie about rape" then let me remind you of the one rollingstone article.
And again the point is women play games, they want to be persued. Which depending on their mood, your income/attractive ration and whether they are hungry or not will determine if they’ve just been (gasp) assualted by a flirt. Then your ol life gets ruined by a tweet and they move on, to be pursued by another guy, depending on the lunar cycle.
My dad was a resource officer for a high school. A girl accused the varsity quarterback of rape and he went to prison for it and lost scholarships until she admitted she made the whole thing up 2 years later and he was released. Ruined his life. False rape accusations are real and a scummy thing to do.
From what I’ve seen in the news, the woman generally receives a lesser sentence than the man she falsely accused. In my opinion, it should be tit-for-tat.
Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that fake rape accusers should be punished with at least something close to the same as their victims. My only question is, if their sentencing is so severe, how do we motivate them to tell the truth? A lot of them won't come forward, and the end result is the man ends up in prison for the full sentence, and never has his name cleared.
I don't want to see lighter sentencing for false accusers at all, and I'm not supporting that. This is a genuine concern and I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on it.
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Also, as a ray of hope, don't forget the woman who accused the taxi driver of rape got 18 months in jail iirc, and lost any hope of finishing her career pursuits in law/forensics or whatever the hell it was.
And fake claims are still not as common as real ones... although, given how much people *loves* attention, I have a feeling this statistic may not hold true much longer. :/
He's scared that he doesn't know the boundaries between flirting and sexual harrasment / rape
How about we just start teaching everyone, not just men, that saying no means no, not "please, continue until one or both of us regrets this" if you're saying no, but expecting him to continue, you're part of the problem
.
But it's good that men nowadays are realizing that not every woman, in fact not even most women, are like that. Some years ago, "she's just playing hard to get" was usually the default assumption upon rejection, which resulted in a lot of uncomfortable, borderline stalker situations for many women. It's good that men are now realizing that making that assumption and pursuing someone who's clearly not comfortable with it may not be a good idea. I agree with Cavill that unwanted flirting shouldn't be branded as sexual assault, though. It dillutes the meaning and makes actual rape victims seem unserious.
And when they do, you complain that they should try harder? Wtf is wrong with women
And ofc he's scared
Who doesn't? Especially when you're famous with cash
Think, if a person goes "have you heard? Henry C. Raped ..." how many people will respond with "do you have reliable sources of information?" And how many of them will just "omg! That's crazy"
False rape accusations have ruined so many people lives, it's not something anyone can take lightly
So just don't pin this on women when men are just as guilty.
All that in mind, alot of comments I hear people freaking out about I'd say can be written off, as well. Not *all* of them, but a lot of them.
It's tricky for both sides. But generally, most of us DO know what kind of behavior is likely to be considered offensive at all times.
If there's ever a moment where you're having any doubt about putting your hands on someone, just pretend you're at Supermarket. Or your grandma is watching you. If you wouldn't do it in either of those scenarios, you're probably better off not doing it now. Or just don't do it
If there is ever any expression of discomfort and the behavior continues or, worse, escalates, then the person is now saying "Im aware of your feelings/rights in this matter, and I do not care. I will violate them anyway."
Still, I think either of them graBbing you and putting your body against theirs is taking things a bit too far considering they don't know you, and if they wanted to dance theres other ways it could be approached. But aftermath also counts. If a guy or girl does something (within reason) moderately inappropriate, but I make it clear that, no, that's not okay, and they apologize or move on, then we'd usually be good. It's, as you say, the second time round that's usually the problem.
Tbh I never would have guessed you'd been assaulted from your commentary so far. It seems like you've got a fairly level headed way of thinking about it, though. I mean, there's PTSD, and then there's grudges, and it takes a very strong person to be able to differentiate and evaluate after something like that.
Not that you need my freaking validation ffs.
Women and men should not be afraid to interact with each other plain and simple, and there has to be a way to accomplish that goal out there somewhere. We're probably just too far in the thick of it at present times to see how much closer we've gotten to it or not
And, while it certainly doesn't define you, I do think what you went through lends more weight to your opinion, also. A lot of people think their outrage should be justified just because they claim it on behalf of someone else (I probably have been guilty of this at some point, though hopefully not so ridiculously). And that's not always the case.
If the person who *survived* the incident isn't as outraged as you are, maybe, it might be a good idea to pause your reaction, and consider whether you should respect that or not
He said something honest and understandable. If you cannot at the very least understand where he is coming from, maybe YOU don't understand part of the problem. The world is filled with so much disrespect, poor guy has no clue if someone is playing hard to get or doesnt want his attention at all. Maybe we should stop this whole playing with people's emotions thing while we're at it and maybe he wouldnt feel like hes walking on eggshells
Oh wait we do already and is also a crime with a prison sentence.
Maybe we should start to teach people that FALSE rape accusations are bad and should also be a crime. If someone starts again with the argument "women never lie about rape" then let me remind you of the one rollingstone article.
Did the girl get punished for the false accusations
She wasn’t punished at all
I don't want to see lighter sentencing for false accusers at all, and I'm not supporting that. This is a genuine concern and I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on it.
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Also, as a ray of hope, don't forget the woman who accused the taxi driver of rape got 18 months in jail iirc, and lost any hope of finishing her career pursuits in law/forensics or whatever the hell it was.
And fake claims are still not as common as real ones... although, given how much people *loves* attention, I have a feeling this statistic may not hold true much longer. :/