A lot of people contribute there. The parents/guardians who don’t know where their kids are, The girls who know they aren’t supposed to be there, The club or one of its employees who failed to enforce legal age limits.... But here’s the thing- the person we look to as “at fault” in an incident is the person who has the largest and most direct role in being capable, and in position to prevent an incident. In this case- the underage child the adult slept with can’t be held primarily accountable. By virtue underage minds aren’t fully formed or capable of adult decision making which is why we charge children and adults differently and why we have different rules for each.
I mean seriously- if we met at a club and I offered to sell you a car you wanted- and you gave me cash and closed the deal, and the next day you found out the car was stolen and not mine and I was 15- is that a reasonable legal defense? “We were at a club so I figured they were 18 and able to sell a car, and they had the keys so I figured they owned the car and could sell it, but I never got any sort of verifiable proof I just went off those details...” you’d sound like a freaking moron. That’s literally criminal stupidity right there. And then you’re going to say “blame the underaged child because I, an adult, committed a crime.”
It’s not illegal for a minor to sleep with an adult. It’s illegal for an adult to sleep with a minor. As an adult, with the mental capacity and experience, with the legal burden on your lap, the burden is on you to get a positive ID- using direct and indirect target information and the bates theorem one can calculate the odds themselves. I recommend you err on the side of a type II error and falsely flag a friendly as hostile over accidentally flagging a hostile as friendly. Good hunting.
While I agree that one needs to get more information when selling a car, and one needs to not have sex with children, I don't think it's fair to expected people to card potential sexual partners.
You should definitely not have sex with someone who looks underage, especially without some proof they are not. But 15/16 year olds who are trying to get into clubs are also trying to look older to do so. If you would guess she is 19/20 and she is in a club that requires people to be 18+, it should be a safe assumption that she is of legal age. The same for underage boys for that matter.
There is something to be said for "plausible deniability " especially if she told you she was 19, for example. Again, its obviously different if she is 12 and looks maybe 14. Its obviously different if she told you "I'm only 16, look at my fake ID. Looks legit, huh?"
But take a second to imagine how a 22 year old woman who looks a little young for her age might react if you wanted to card her home...
... Many women don't appreciate it when you ask their age. And asking to see their ID seems strange, and maybe a little threatening. And telling her you just want to make sure she is legal is probably not going to send the right message.
So, crack down on clubs carding people at the door is probably a good move. Investigate when someone is reported with sleeping with an underage club attendee, obviously. Teens who do this should face some criminal charges. a 15 year old is still a minor, but would also be charged as a minor for something like theft. There is no reason a minor shouldn't be charged with some kind of penalty for encouraging illegal acts under false premises.
Again, given that this is the case. 15 year old rape victims should not fall into the same category as 15 year olds who actively seek sex with adults. Even if theater still counts as statutory rape, these are not even close to the same circumstances.
While it can be an unpopular opinion- I agree that ax crimes should be considered categorically and not all equally- a 19yo and a 16yo having “consensual” sex isn’t something I generally approve of- but even where illegal it isn’t the same thing as a 19yo and a 9yo having “consensual” sex nor the same as someone forcing sex through violence Etc. But it’s a slippery slope isn’t it? If we criminalize the act of children having sex with adults- then what happens to victims of pedophiles? Unless they can clearly prove it was forced rape- we lock up the 5yo and Uncle bad touch both because they agreed to play “doctor” willingly? If we make a clause for where the child “tempted” the adult or was where “children don’t belong” or passed themselves off as an adult... that becomes an instant defense for any pedophile- how do you prove beyond all doubt in a closed room with 2 people that there wasn’t a “misunderstanding?”
And yes- it sucks having to vet sex partners- but AIDS sucks too. You can ask them if they’ve been tested but you’re taking a risk with your life on their word. You trust a complete stranger with your life to raw dog it when you don’t know them well enough to even know if they’re 18? People WILL get offended if you even ask if they’ve been tested let alone demand to see proof. But if they decide not to have sex I’d rather not get laid than get HIV. If I ask for proof of age because I can’t be sure you’re 18 and you split- that’s better than going to jail and to me- even if it wasn’t a crime that’s better than sex with a child.
There’s no such thing as casual sex. I’m very sex positive and believe people should explore and enjoy their sexuality- but sex is like riding a motorcycle. A “fun” “safe” “quick” trip down the block can end in financial and physical disaster or even death. That girl or guy could be the “bait” and their muscle could follow them and you could be robbed or worse. A fling can easily become a robbery or rape. Babies, STD’s, so on. So like riding a motorcycle it is fun- and to many it’s an important aspect of mental well being. There’s always danger and we decide how cautious we want to be.
end of day, there’s risk in sex and tore the one person as an adult between an adult and child who is considered to be accountable. The front desk clerk at the company might not follow security procedures for every guest every time. It’s a pain, they can usually tell the obvious people who don’t belong, and they might upset someone by demanding they follow the procedures exactly and get in trouble or upset a client and lose them. And that’s fine the 1000 tones there’s no problem. The one time things go wrong though- it’s a big problem. That’s a risk they take if they don’t demand positive identification etc. But if someone dies because of their negligence- that’s manslaughter. It doesn’t matter how unforeseeable the consequence is.
Something bad happened, it can’t be undone, you were in a position to stop or prevent it, you didn’t even try, and now you’re on the hook. So perhaps such cases should be considered something like “3rd degree statutory rape..” or the like, with a lesser penalty and less restrictions than face other sex offenders. Perhaps you shouldn’t be added to a watch list or the like unless you end up a repeat offender, or something along those lines. But kids can legally have sex. It’s not like a kid ordering a beer where they and the bartender are guilty. If 2 consenting 11yo kids want to have sex they won’t go to jail. The kids only crimes are arguably related to fraud- but again, it’s a very dangerous idea to say an accusation of fraud would nullify sex crime charges.
I think the crimes should be treated independently of one another. The burden of proof always laying with the prosecution.
This would mean that there would be times when both were found innocent of criminal activity, due to lack of proof.
And the agrugement is that you shouldn't be charged with rape if the minor consented and you reasonably believed said minor was an adult (such as, the minor lied to you&appeared old enough)
It is critically important the burden of proof for a crime be on the prosecution yes. And intent is a critical factor in any crime. However- so is culpability. You mention if they reasonably believed the person was an adult. Now- anything that relies on proving what a person believed is double tricky already- but precedent does exist in law for such qualifiers- but we must be careful with them. Certain people- and certain genetic groups are known to be difficult to judge age often- especially to those who have little experience with those groups. So not just the defendant but even the judge or jury making the determination would matter greatly by demographic- lest certain groups find themselves at a lack for justice in certain areas where they may be under represented. Beyond that what is reasonable to assume?
It certainly isn’t reasonable to assume that because you are in a club that’s 18+ they are an adult. Plenty of people have had fake ID’s or snuck into clubs in their own lives, and at least since I was in high school and likely longer a common saying was “if you want to meet girls that are 18, go to a 21+ club. If you want to meet girls who are 16, go to an 18+ club.” The #1 and classic method is still borrowing an ID of someone who kinda looks like you and is over 21- and data from various liquor boards shows failure rates on routine checks for ID at bars to be up to 48% as an average. So it would in my opinion be unreasonable to expect simply because a person is in a club that they are an adult. The law seems to agree-
and a bartender serving a minor in a 21+ club in most jurisdictions is still guilty of serving a minor. Why? The same logic I’ve applied here. If they want to “trust” the doorman or club security did the job because it speeds up their work flow and likely is better for tips- that’s a common risk but still a risk they take. So even the bartender can’t assume that a person is an adult.
Likewise- we see in other crimes where allowances are made for accidentally and unknowingly committing a crime that there is still a basic standard of due diligence that is required to establish innocence. Otherwise it would be a relatively simply matter for most types of criminals to simply use patsies or to plan their crimes in such a way which they could simply claim culpable deniability no? If one could simply take a package onto a plane for hire without consequence- what consequence would their be to deter drug smuggling- and what person caught with drugs wouldn’t simply claim they didn’t know they were being used to transport drugs?
If I offer you $100 to take a package from Mexico to New York for me on your way- that’s not inherently suspicious per se. I didn’t offer you $5,000. A story about how it would cost 2x that to ship freight and not get there in time for my nieces birthday blah blah wouldn’t be unbelievable and is logical. What’s suspicious about a wrapped package from a family member to another? But it doesn’t add up still. And what if your defense after boarding a plane and landing and being arrested was “Well the airport I left from had security so it was reasonable to assume that the package wasn’t criminal or else they wouldn’t have allowed it on the plane....”
What of unattended backpacks? You’re screened before the flight- before you enter the terminal- so why does it matter if your bag isn’t attended? Shouldn’t the fact everyone in that area is supposed to be “safe” mean you can reasonably assume there couldn’t be anything unsafe to worry about? The logic doesn’t hold up when we examine the real world and examples of law as they exist.
So as I said earlier- I could see an argument (without condoning or condemning) in which a person sleeping with a minor in such a scenario be charged with a lesser degree of sex crime with possibility to not be made a second offender unless they have repeat or related offenses- but I can’t see a logical or functional argument that we should create a law which holds a person- the only person in control of their genitals- not responsible for what they do with those genitals.
Who’s responsibility is it who you sleep with? Who has oversight and the ability to dictate it? Who can tell you it is or isn’t a good idea to have a particular partner? Who gets the enjoyment of any from it it? Who- between an adult and a child is the person accountable? If you throw a party for a bunch of teens with beer and they lied and said they were 21- who goes to trial for buying alcohol for minors- you or the 17 year old you bought beer? That’s how it works because being an adult comes with burdens and one of them is that we expect more from adults than from children.
And how exactly does this precedent of “oopsie daisy it’s not rapey” effect adult victims? Could a rapist argue: “well you see, she didn’t fight back- I had no idea I was raping her because she didn’t fight back....” What ways would a person find to apply “reasonable” that they couldn’t tell the person wasn’t consenting? “All my partners have enjoyed rough sex... it’s all I know. She seemed into it. She was wet, and I thought she was playing along...” “well, at a party last year I thought she talked to me about having rape fantasies. So I approached her at the party as creepily as possible as part of the fantasy. When I asked her to this secluded area I figured she was game, and yeah she cried and struggled and fought- but she didn’t hurt me. And she had a knife and didn’t use it so I thought it was part of the fantasy...”
I do see the silver lining in that I look very young for my age. It just seemed excessive that he didn't believe the drivers license, my passport, AND the police officer who happened to be standing there. Oh well, not worth being around someone quite so paranoid.
I don’t think she’s absolving a man who takes home a kid. I think she is just trying to point out to these girls that their actions have serious ramifications for the guys they are tricking. Like hey girls it seems like fun, but if you actually get someone to pick you up, you could be ruining his life. And let’s remember that 18 year olds aren’t known for making all the best decisions either. And yes, they are adults, they haven’t been “adults” for a full year. They still think like teenagers... oh wait they *are* still teenagers, which is probably why the teen girls appeal to them.
You should definitely not have sex with someone who looks underage, especially without some proof they are not. But 15/16 year olds who are trying to get into clubs are also trying to look older to do so. If you would guess she is 19/20 and she is in a club that requires people to be 18+, it should be a safe assumption that she is of legal age. The same for underage boys for that matter.
There is something to be said for "plausible deniability " especially if she told you she was 19, for example. Again, its obviously different if she is 12 and looks maybe 14. Its obviously different if she told you "I'm only 16, look at my fake ID. Looks legit, huh?"
But take a second to imagine how a 22 year old woman who looks a little young for her age might react if you wanted to card her home...
So, crack down on clubs carding people at the door is probably a good move. Investigate when someone is reported with sleeping with an underage club attendee, obviously. Teens who do this should face some criminal charges. a 15 year old is still a minor, but would also be charged as a minor for something like theft. There is no reason a minor shouldn't be charged with some kind of penalty for encouraging illegal acts under false premises.
Again, given that this is the case. 15 year old rape victims should not fall into the same category as 15 year olds who actively seek sex with adults. Even if theater still counts as statutory rape, these are not even close to the same circumstances.
This would mean that there would be times when both were found innocent of criminal activity, due to lack of proof.
And the agrugement is that you shouldn't be charged with rape if the minor consented and you reasonably believed said minor was an adult (such as, the minor lied to you&appeared old enough)