That kind of seducers

@sunflowers Where did you get rape from what I said?
@famousone That’s reasonable.

The rapist is still a criminal, yes. I'd gladly butcher the fucker myself.
But going out alone and getting wasted without a plan is pretty fucking stupid.
Should that effect sentencing? Fuck no. But it ought to elevate the burden of proof in cases where force wasn't utilized or threatened (ie: "I woke up next to him and regret it", as opposed to "He beat me down and dragged me into a stall").

It does get a little complicated doesn’t it? The DUI example seems clear- but what about if you get drunk and sign a contract? The law holds that a contract is a meeting of the minds. If either party is not in good presence of mind to enter a contact- it can be voided under the principal that no contract ever existed. Since legal sex requires mutual informed consent, and rape is sec where consent doesn’t exist- we have a social contract that requires both parties to be capable of making decisions. There is however a clear distinction in contract precedent-

To be void as a contract- the party who is NOT impaired in judgment must be deemed to have reasonable cause to suspect the other person is not of sound judgment BEFORE entering the contract. As that applies here- that basically means that the person who isn’t drunk or intoxicated past the point of being able to reason, would have to have indication the drunk person was in fact drunk. Slurred speech, poor coordination, seeing them drink a lot of alcohol, throwing up, being “fall down drunk” or otherwise showing signs of being drunk.

But we can easily apply that same logic here- if you are unable to consent- there can’t be consent. In a DUI YOU committed a criminal act while drunk so since there must be fault (otherwise “I was drunk” would legally excuse any crime-) it is YOURS because YOU drank and YOU created the dangerous situation.

In the case of sex with a drunk person (raping a drunk-) The non drunk person committed the crime. Being drunk on private property isn’t a crime or inherently dangerous under the law. But just like sex with a child- the person who is aware and cognizant of the situation has the ability to make informed decisions and the person drinking does not. It is not a crime to have sex while you are drunk either. So the drunk hadn’t done anything prohibited. Having sex with a drunk when you are sober IS a crime because like a child- a drunk person can’t be expected to understand the decision or consent to it.

Since they cannot consent- and the other person can- only one person knowingly and willingly decided to have sex. Sex where only one person can or does consent is rape. Comparing it to a DUI doesn’t work. A DUI comparison would only be apt if we were talking about charging a person with rape for masturbating while drunk.

If you get drunk and drive on your private property closed to the public- alone in the vehicle- you can’t be charged with DUI. DUI applies on spaces deemed public roads and access. If you get drunk and masturbate on your property of private property you’re allowed to away from people- there is no crime. If you eat drunk and drive in a public area where your actions endanger the public trust- that’s a crime. If you get drunk and masturbate in public where your actions are unlawful and endanger public trust- that is a crime. So the distinction lies in a crime YOU solely commit vs a crime committed by another party. A child doesn’t commit a crime sleeping with an adult- an adult commits a crime sleeping with a child- those impaired in judgment are not free of consequence and can express their legal rights to freedom. It’s the other party that did the crime.

Just as a drunk walking home from a bar who gets mugged didn’t commit a crime. It is the nugget who is commuting a crime.

The thing is, you have to really really drunk to not know you are making a decision. When you are that drunk they don’t let you stay in the bar most of the time. If someone drinks enough to pass out or be on their way to passing out and someone takes their clothes off and has sex with them then I agree that’s rape. However, if they are drunk and they are willingly returning affection to the other persons advances (even though they might not have sober) and it ends in sex, that isn’t rape.

I have a male friend who has an entertaining story of how he lost his virginity. He was “saving himself” but got blackout drunk at a frat party. When he “blacked in” he found himself on his bed with a girl on top of him in the midst of the act. Did he get raped? No. He knew in hindsight that he had consented to doing it even if he couldn’t remember that consent. Just because the decisions we make are different when alcohol allows us to throw off our inhibitions doesn't we don’t make them.

He got raped.

@scatmandingo @eccehobo- rape is in the eye of the beholder. If I met you at a friends gathering, and I got out of line, and you popped me in the mouth- chances are that I’m not going to feel you assaulted me, or that legal action is required. Even if you legally committed assault. I might pop you back- or I might say “yeah- that’s what happens when I mouth off...” and we can go back to being cool. It all depends. If a stranger walks up and pops me- I’m probably gonna call that assault. You might feel different. Your tolerance for assault may be different. You might call the cops if your sibling pops you one. It all depends on the people and circumstances. That’s part of the difficulty in having a single law for rape and a single definition.

It’s complex. A victim of rape or abuse might not want to admit its rape or abuse- or they may genuinely be unaffected by it. The playful insults and rivalry between friends in what isn’t a textbook “healthy” relationship is technically a form of mental abuse. I’m not perfectly “healthy” mentally and know people who aren’t- and we get along well and have good and constructive relationships because the ways we are broken as people go well together. It’s not going to help us become perfect and whole humans- but it is also not going to cause us further harm or damage our ability to reach goals and be happy and productive.

It’s hard to put in words. But it works for us. Waking up next to a person and feeling bad about yourself for what you did and waking up next to a person and feeling bad about them for what they did aren’t the same. You can be legally raped and not be negatively effected or feel you were raped. You can not be legally raped and still FEEL raped. One important factor in discussing rape in a legal and social context is distinguishing between the two. Realizing that in any social interaction a person who didn’t intend wrong or even objectively do wrong can still cause another to feel wronged. While on those cases prosecution might not be warranted- respecting the feelings of the person who feels wronged is important- as is asking what perhaps could be done differently to prevent such issues.

You make a little joke, or a factual observation in casual conversation- and someone gets upset. It happens. You didn’t mean it to. You maybe didn’t even have ANY reason to think what you said could upset a person. It wasn’t “edgy” or a sensitive subject in your mind. That doesn’t change their feelings does it? Somewhere between walking on eggshells around everyone you don’t know intimately well and just saying whatever you want without any thought to others is a level of consideration. The topic of rape touches on that- finding a point people can mostly agree on or compromise on which is a line to draw on where we can make a level of assumption to consent.

You’re with a partner. You’re asleep in bed. You wake up- roll over- start fondling them. Maybe more. They wake up. Is it rape? They might join in. They might say to stop so they can sleep- or they might feel violated. I have these types of conversations with new partners- and if we haven’t had that conversation I don’t do it because I do not know how they feel about it.

Everyone handles booze differently, everyone views consent differently, and men as well as women can be raped. My HARD rule is that if I haven’t slept with a person before and don’t know them well- if they drink there will be no sex. If we go out the first time and you order a glass of wine- there will be no sexual contact until 8-12 hours from your last drink. I don’t know how you handle booze, and I don’t care because I’m not going to jail on a rape charge because you feel some way after and can show a judge you were drinking. There are fuck buddies, masturbation, and if you’re so inclined there are paid services and humanoid sex dolls and toys and all manner of ways to get your rocks off that don’t involve risking a rape charge.

As for bars kicking drunks out- that really depends. Most places we’d go as kids wouldn’t do shit if you didn’t throw up in the club or weren’t like hanging off the ceilings or picking fights. Drunks buy drinks. Over tip and overpay and don’t notice when the 15th shot is mostly water. It’s part of the business plan. They know the group of early 20’s who obviously spent hours getting ready on a Friday night didn’t come to nurse two cocktails and hang out sober till closing or go home at 9:30pm with a mild buzz. They know you aren’t ordering cheap hard liquor because you taste it like fine wine. You cake to get turnt and fuck off the week. So most bars and clubs kids go to around here are in the business of getting people sauced.

There is an area where no less than 8 well known bars have my picture on the “wall of shame-“ because that’s how they handled drunks. They’d pour you more drinks and laugh and then take your photos when you made an ass of yourself. I’ve ordered more drinks than I could carry- missed the minimum- and had the bartender fill the rest with $2 “hobo shots” which are a mixed of old bar hard liquor in a single bottle on a brown bag. Then I drank 4 hobo shots at the bar so I would t have to carry them back with the round- and done it again. They were fine to take my money. And that’s just the stuff I remember from those nights.

You don’t actually even have to be that drunk to not recall certain things funny enough. To have them be a blur or only remember when someone tells you and then even faintly. And that’s the sorta point- if you don’t remember giving consent there’s good odds that you weren’t in a mental state to give it at the time. So hopefully we all agree that an obvious, sloppy, blackout drunk isn’t someone you should sleep with.

From there it gets less obvious though. What if they can “maintain” well? Some places will kick you out or cut you off- and I know more than a few good star party folks who can walk through a DUI check point with more alcohol in them than a top fuel funny car. People who can go to work drunk for decades and not be found out as drunks. So it can be reeeeal hard to tell a functional drunk when they’re two sheets to the wind if you don’t know them well. But what if you are just buzzed and you consent, then get smashed- maybe do some drugs too- and can’t remember consenting? That’s not rape- you weren’t drunk then. You forgot. But that’s real hard to sort out isn’t it?

It’s complex and messy. So the question has to be- how drunk can we likely confirm they were when you had sex? How likely is it that you would be able to tell or infer they are or likely are drunk? It’s like driving. Buzzed driving is drunk driving. That’s what the adds say. So I don’t drive if I’ve had a sip. A single sip. I don’t care that I KNOW I could drink several drinks and feel fine, or likely be under the limit. I could probably be almost black out drunk and get home fine. Why risk it? The stakes are too high to fuck around. Sex always has risk. Always. Like anything else in life we gotta weigh risk and reward.

With all the other ways to orgasm- there’s a serious issue with your mental priorities or an addiction at play if you look at orgasm vs rape and say the risk and reward are worth it. I’ve had sex with sober partners while I was too drunk to even fully remember it. I don’t call that me being raped because I don’t care. But I don’t care about people who make noise while eating either and I know several people who get almost violently upset by it. So what I CARE ABOUT doesn’t dictate what others do or should care about.

If you FEEL raped that’s not debatable. It’s how you feel. Were you able to make an informed decision when it happened? Did the other person know or have indication you may not be able to make an informed decision? Did they, knowing this, still engage you in acts requiring informed consent? It’s complex but can also be very simple. Was there a meeting of the minds- if not- was the other party aware or in reasonable knowledge of that but can be said to have taken advantage of the situation for their purposes? Were you forced or coerced if able to make decisions- were you placed in a position where your ability to make decisions was compromised by force or implication of likely use of force in the form of physical or other means?

A CRIME needs a victim- and if you feel ok about the whole thing- genuinely and truly and not as a defense mechanism etc. and you are supposed to be the victim- The “victim” is the one having had harm done to them. If no harm was done- that’s our call. But just because there is a victim doesn’t always mean there was a crime. Harm can be done with no crime intended or committed. Rape is rape. Like many things- a key in the matter is how an individual feels about the whole thing. Your life- your choices. Risks and rewards. Calculated risks. One bad choice can be death, prison, financial ruin, loneliness, etc. can’t stop people from making bad choices. That’s a right. Those of us who don’t want to be ruined can try to make better choices though. Be smart, think with the head on your shoulders.