It’s not. Only the most ignorant people say otherwise. Firstly- “fault” is not a good word here. It’s not your fault though what people did before you were born. It’s not any man alive’s fault that women couldn’t own businesses or property. It’s not your fault that because women couldn’t do this stuff that few women were able to build wealth and pass down legacies and participate in shaping the country. It isn’t your fault that because women couldn’t do those things, that the country was largely shaped by men in a way Ken wanted it shaped. Those are facts that’s led through history to an outcome you were born into. You didn’t do those things, you can’t change them.
But you know what you CAN do? You can change what happens from here. Knowing these facts- knowing that if you started working towards the goal today- you’d likely never have as much wealth as a legacy like the Koch’s because their wealth is built on things that happened before they were born- so knowing very well that you benefit from these terrible things other people did, that your plantation owning great great grandpa had a child who grew up with their perspectives shaped by that and their school and lifestyle financed by those things possibly inherited wealth that cane from that, then had a child that is your parent who may also have inherited money from that, and the interest from that- who grew up guided and taught by a person who grew up guided and taught by a person who grew up around that- who’s education and lifestyle was partially financed from that/ that you benefit from that. That the world that created benefits you and is tailored to you.
And being aware of all that- you can see a person who grew up disadvantaged by that. Who’s great great grandpa was possibly owned by yours. So they never got an education or were able to accumulate wealth and their life experience was one where they were worthless and people existed as property and those with power could take what they wanted from those without and force them to their will. They were taught by your great great grandfather that it was ok- it was a tool- a practicality- to strip people of property and dignity and self if it suits you and you can. And then that person had a child who grew up with nothing, and because of the generation of your great grandfather and possibly him too- weren’t allowed to gain anything. And were taught to believe they were less than and they couldn’t think or be educated and were less than human.
Then they had a kid who grew up with that parents and maybe could get a little for themselves. But they had to do it in a world that was built against them, a world where the child of the man that owned their father was the boss or CEO or judge. They had to fight just to be equal. Then they had a kid. And that kid inherited all that. A whole lot of nothing. And not because their. Ancestors were foolish or lazy or unlucky in business- but because your ancestors took everything they had and used it to build a legacy that you are now the beneficiary of. And multiply that by many hundreds of thousands of slaves and slave owners and these are the people who built the world we now live in.
So is it right that these people should be at a disadvantage now because of what someone else did to ultimately try and benefit you? It’s not “oh it happened before I was born...” when you are still getting the benefits is it? If my father stole all your fathers money, and handed it down to me, used it to benefit me and pave the way for me to exist- would it be fair or right of me to tell you “tough shit. This belonged to my dad. I didn’t do anything wrong.” Because you see- the generation after slavery already said it wasn’t their job to make it right. Then the next, and the next. The responsibility keeps getting passed to the future to pay a debt. But who benefits from that debt? The debt of slavery and racism in America certainly doesn’t benefit those descended from slaves-
It’s literally the law- if your father finances a car and leaves everything to you- but still owes the bank when he dies- you either have to give the car back, or make the payments. You don’t get to keep the car and not make payments and then say “hey man- that’s not my fault. My dad did that.” Of that worked wouldnt we all be rich? Why wouldn’t our parents just take all the loans they could and steal before they does and leave it to us? That’s not how that works. You don’t get to keep the benefit and then in the same breath say that you don’t hold any of the debt. We talk about men who built empires but they didn’t build them- their slaves did the building. Without those slaves- those unpaid slaves- they wouldn’t have been able to do what they did. The modern world is built on their backs and they didn’t get anything, their families didn’t get anything- except a legacy of obstacles and set backs.
@sunflowers- sorry. Lol. Was typing and didn’t see your reply until now. Perhaps. It’s 2019 though. The news is a joke and jokes tell the news- cartoon characters are or aren’t or maybe are secret racists slogans and a large section of one of the worlds richest countries founded by immigrants for immigrants thinks they have an immigrant problem and are building a wall- a solution which doesn’t even keep gophers out- to try and solve it. So you can never be so sure, but in this day- the old adage “behind every joke is a kernel of truth” is certainly the case with how masterful political subversion is becoming.
Are you talking about the civil war? I’m not ware of what conflict American fighting men and women died in which was a war fought exclusively on behalf of the defendants of those wronged by systemic racism and slavery? I was under the impression that the military serves the people of America, and that included people who were oppressed but still American and citizens? And how are one group of American civilians exempt from the impression that occurred to another group of Americans for their benefit by virtue of the military shedding blood for all Americans?
Likewise- what erasure of debt is there when before former slaves and their descendants could vote, own land, later on hold jobs or even eat where they wanted or marry who they wanted- but starting with the civil war fought and died in every major American war while being held as second class citizens by the country they were willing to die for? Did you forget black soldiers fought and died too? Did you forget that it was largely black soldiers given jobs like loading munitions that were essential to WW2 and vital- and in unsafe conditions that were deemed to risky for even white laborers? Did you forget the Port Chicago disaster perhaps?
The debt you speak of and the toll paid by American fighting men and women is a hefty one- but isn’t this debt. This is the debt that allowed those American fighting men and women who weren’t black to gain rank and pay, make post war careers, marry who they loved and live in any neighborhood they wanted while the black men who served next to them and risked it all and would die next to them weren’t good enough to be called “hero.” Weren’t good enough to come home and buy a house in a neighborhood where men they’d slept next to in mud and death lived. Weren’t good enough to come back and use their war experience and training to work in desirable and lucrative jobs.
Don’t you dare pull that card out here. That’s a low shot that doesn’t apply and cheapens, prostitutes the sacrifices of people who served before you of all colors. It marginalized and tries on one stroke to wipe away 200+ years of racism based on the fact that men and women- many of whom were openly racist but otherwise damn fine people- did their damn duty and served their country- and they didn’t do it so their names could be dragged out and used to justify why it’s ok to not pay your dues. Those who died in the service are paid up with their lives. There’s nothing more we can ask them to give. But you’re here- I’m here- and neither one of us has died gloriously in service to our country- so we still have work to do.
No. I will play that card. I will play that card against everyone that tries to say whites owe anybody anything by virtue of race alone.
Shit happens. To everyone.
America has had her crucibles! We've all starved, we've all bled, and my brothers have always watched out for one another.
That debt was well payed by mother's tears, orphan's cries, the blood of boys and men, and generations of hardship and reform.
They sure as hell didn't fight and die for their great-great-grandchildren to be forced to surrender their livelihoods or opportunities to able men by merit of color.
My own father is mostly white. He married a native/hispanic woman who'd already had one child out of wedlock with another man.
He worked his entire damn life. He was born in a barn and since then he struggled to improve his own station. My sister and I may as well have grown up without a father, because he wasn't regularly home until we were grown.
He gave up watching his children grow up to earn the life he's got.
I'll be damned before I allow him and the countless men and women like him to get fucked over for the benefit people who happen to be a different color.
No one is saying that white people don’t have struggles. White people face poverty, have to work hard, etc. but like you say- those are universal problems. Those problems or disadvantages aren’t put upon them just because they are white. Some may be legacy problems of being born disadvantaged in money etc- but those aren’t problems they inherited because they were forced upon them by society- their ancestors had choices. The issue is when a group of people’s ancestors had their choices taken away to benefit another. The “debt” owed your blue collar dad is a debt his ancestors would need to answer for.
Every generation of my family on my mother AND fathers side going all the way back has fought in every major American war. On my mothers side military device goes back- unbroken- for almost 300 years. My mother’s family were wealthy and established people and she was abandoned by them as a girl and raised in poverty by a single mother who was schizophrenic long before there was help or understanding. My father lived on a reservation and joined the service to get away from how horrible his life was. I’m well aware of struggle and sacrifice. I can’t speak for your family, but I know mine back to my great grandpa at least didn’t go through 2 world wars and more just to secure his families well being. They were soldies. real soldiers. They fought for his country and everyone in it- not just the people they knew
He isn't owed a single thing by anybody who hasn't wronged him or he hasn't made a deal with.
From the sounds of it, you're looking to wrong him.
What the hell do you know about an ancestor's choice being taken away? What about the countless men who had to answer the draft, were born into famine, or displaced by war? Who never had anything to do with slavery as far as their bloodline can be traced?
For all you know my father's ancestors were Irish slaves who escaped and landed in America long after the emancipation, and the next black man you see may be directly descended from the long dead warlords that long dead jerks bought slaves from in the first place.
Real soldier? A real soldier fights for whatever it is that convinces them to charge a machinegun nest.
Maybe it's a vague idea of what the people in their nation are like, but I'm willing to bet that far more men envisioned their mothers, wives, and sisters than envisioned Uncle Sam.
How does it wrong your dad- to identify the stilted aspects of a system and set them right? How does it wrong your dad to say that he had to put in work for what he has- but someone else had to do the exact same thing but work against a world that was literally built in opposition to them while they did it? Your dad doesn’t have to cut a check or give half his house to a stranger. How would we even calculate what a persons family MIGHT have acquired over 200 years? I told you- my mom cake from a well off family and in one generation she had nothing. It wasn’t her fault her mom went crazy- or any of it. A flip of the coin and she’d have been a socialite and been sent to college by her dad. That’s not how her life went. It went DOWN HILL- almost to the absolute lowest a human can go. Literally. So shit happens. If slavery was never a thing and an alternate history occurred where black Americans owned plantations instead of working them...
A bad coin flip, an addiction, a foolish ancestor and their descendants lives could have turned out pretty much the same. We can’t say. What we can say is that they never GOT A CHANCE. It wasn’t a famine or plague or war. Some far reaching act of god or war. It was a conscious decision of multiple generations of a society to treat human beings as property, then as animals, then as lesser human beings. There’s an enormous debt there that can’t be repaid because we can’t even say what is owed.
The debt and what is owed isn’t results. Results aren’t guaranteed in life nor as part of the American ideal. Opportunity is supposed to be. So even if we could all agree there was a debt and an amount owed it’s not something you cut a check for. Here’s no justice there, and giving a person wealth when they don’t know how to handle wealth- generally speaking you might as well burn the money. It wouldn’t fix anything. People who don’t have good financial habits tend to have bad finances. Giving them money often just allows them to loose it all- and the only way to find out if a person is poor because they are bad with money or because they don’t have opportunity through money is giving them money and hoping they don’t waste it. That doesn’t work.
It doesn’t create the tools or know how to deal with money and be financially responsible or capable. What- pay out hundreds of billions of dollars on a guess of what might be owed to “set things right” so that in less than a generation most of that money will be gone and the next generation will be in the same circumstances as if you’d never paid it? That doesn’t work- and as you say- it penalizes people who didn’t directly do anything wrong.
But providing opportunity- elevating people who are at an obvious disadvantage- encouraging educations and small businesses, teaching fiscal responsibility- these are all ways to pay that debt off. So that maybe in a couple generations there wouldn’t be anyone who could look at their life and say that it might be better if it wasn’t for this dark history of America. It’s not a debt owed by “whites” per say but by American society to certain groups which were held back. I mean for fucks sake- it’s not even a secret that into the 70’s and even 80’s the United States government was using its own agencies and tax dollars to actively oppress and suppress minorities. I was alive, lots of people were alive. Your parents were alive. This isn’t ancient history.
Nd people like to talk about the Irish or the Italians etc etc and how they had it rough. They did. No one else’s struggles take that away. But they also weren’t slaves. They weren’t bought and sold and bred. They didn’t suffer into the 20th century not being allowed at the same schools or to sit where they wanted on a bus and so on. And NATIONALLY- not in this city or that neighborhood or with this group or that- but nationally they didn’t suffer the same almost universal prejudice right into 2019. A million Irish didn’t feel life was so bad they needed to march. The Italians weren’t lynched and ran out of town into our life times (or mine anyway- I know you’re young.) the Irish weren’t legally barred from voting into the 1920’s or not allowed on planes.
As for the talk about soldiers- I’m done with that part of the conversation. I said my peace and I’m not going to prostitute the sacrifices of those who gave by dragging them out as a show piece to make my argument for me. They fought their fight- they don’t need to fight this one from the grave- I’ll stand this one on my own and you can keep parading them as champions of your cause since the dead can’t really speak one way or another on it.
Anything but an absolute level playing field in the eyes of the law and government is an injustice. Regardless of race, religion, sex, wealth, or anything else.
Hmmm.... so, you would consider just and fair then- if you and I were to agree to a foot race. One of us may have this or that advantage- but that’s a fair and even thing right? If my father breaks your legs before the race, or drugs you with something because he wants me to have the advantage- is that still fair and even? If we stake money on the race- would you feel it fair? I didn’t tell my father to do this. I had no part. I may even be upset he did. But do you feel it’s fair that you lose that money and I take it because of that? What if my father sets the rules? Distance, place? And sets them in my favor- by nature- if they are in my favor how is that even? You may still win- but it’s hardly a level playing field is it?
Now- let’s ignore all that for now and look at the other aspect of this. So then- do you believe that welfare, low income medical programs, government food banks, free lunch for low income kids at school- do you believe that these things shouldn’t exist? This is the government- stepping in and giving something to one group but not another isn’t it? Do you believe that government paying for post rape therapy and care is wrong? How is it level that rape victims get free care but not anyone else for their traumas in life or mommy issues? What if taxes? Should we all pay one tax- the same amount or percent? No tax breaks? No write offs for dependents or loans or any of that? Just- you made $X, you pay $X?
When do we determine that it’s no longer unbalanced? What makes that call and says “this isn’t unbalanced- it’s a matter of practicality or social well being?” Why does GM get a hail out but not me or you or this business or that? Is that level? Is it level when the government taxes certain goods more, when they offer rebates or incentives for you to buy certain products? What about the mint and the fed manipulating the market and currency values to get people to spend money on private goods? Is that ok or not ok since certain sectors are favored by it?
The world is made of few absolutes. You’ll seldom find an actual absolute anywhere in the world. Things aren’t all black or white, all or nothing. The market isn’t “free” because true freedom is anarchy. The government manipulates the economy, society, and people’s habits and spending through many complex mechanisms because if they didn’t- things would fall apart or some external power would take advantage of the situation. They tax things like foreign made goods at a higher level or things deemed luxury goods in order to limit consumption or give advantage or to offset materials or labor costs between economies.
The “level field” you speak of exists in the past- a place without law or compassion where strength was the defining attribute and the weak were at the mercy of the strong in all ways and places. The “level field” we live in is one we create- with laws and bills and social services and programs which stabilize and guide society.
He field was not level. The field was tipped strongly against a whole bunch of people and a whole bunch of other people benefitted from that. To get back to level we don’t have to take away from the people who gained- we just have to open some doors for those who lost out so that they can have a chance to catch up.
Strength still is and always will be the defining attribute, and the weak will always be at the mercy of the strong.
That's life.
Turning it into a pendulum won't do anybody any good. It will only disenfranchise many, and taint the achievements of the beneficiary.
Yeah man. Water is wet and all hamburger is dead cow too. But are you going to have a burger later, or are you gonna just sit next to a dead cow biting meat off the carcass? The latter is what our ancestors may have done- what we might do if pushed to an extreme. But it’s not how you want to live is it? That’s what civilization is. We say “how can we make this better?” The point of democracy is to take the power and spread it around. You and I have one vote each. Equal odds to impact change in the system. Of course by default we need to have people who have the force to uphold democracy. Police, military, etc.
Paradoxically they have the power of violence to overthrow democracy in theory. But that’s why we have checks and balances. It isn’t a perfect system. There are abuses- and when a small group hold a large ability to make rules (like politicians,) they’ll tend to make the rules work well for them. This is all sort of “laws of physics” stuff.
We can’t break the fundamentals of our reality (yet, that we know of...) For all practical purposes we can’t change genetics so that no child is stronger or smarter, more clever, ambitious, curious, or has whatever exact measure of traits and personality and decision making to succeed greater than any other. People are as they are born. The world is the way it is when we are born and we don’t get to choose. We also don’t get to choose wether polio exists or wether a bear will decide to eat us, we don’t get to choose if someone bigger and stronger wants to bend us over and have at it because they think we look good.
But as a society and civilization we do get to make choices to mitigate these things. We develop vaccines and laws and homes and barriers. We develop technology and all manner of things designed specifically to prevent abuse of power. To prevent those things we decide are undesirable. If it isn’t anarchy there needs to be some type of control- that control is power. Whoever has power can choose to use it as they like so long as we have no power over them. We try our best to make a system where no one person is above it all and all people have some way to seek relief if wronged by another.
These are fundamental pillars of a society that values individual rights and individual freedom. If we fail one person then the system isn’t done being developed yet. It may never be perfect but the fabric of America is woven on the spirit of trying to make the best, most free land where people have the prosperity, opportunity, and freedom to live their lives. That’s the ultimate goal we work towards. Each step we build the framework and hopefully improve it to spread that to more people and do a better job at it.
Shit happens. To everyone.
America has had her crucibles! We've all starved, we've all bled, and my brothers have always watched out for one another.
That debt was well payed by mother's tears, orphan's cries, the blood of boys and men, and generations of hardship and reform.
They sure as hell didn't fight and die for their great-great-grandchildren to be forced to surrender their livelihoods or opportunities to able men by merit of color.
He worked his entire damn life. He was born in a barn and since then he struggled to improve his own station. My sister and I may as well have grown up without a father, because he wasn't regularly home until we were grown.
He gave up watching his children grow up to earn the life he's got.
I'll be damned before I allow him and the countless men and women like him to get fucked over for the benefit people who happen to be a different color.
From the sounds of it, you're looking to wrong him.
What the hell do you know about an ancestor's choice being taken away? What about the countless men who had to answer the draft, were born into famine, or displaced by war? Who never had anything to do with slavery as far as their bloodline can be traced?
For all you know my father's ancestors were Irish slaves who escaped and landed in America long after the emancipation, and the next black man you see may be directly descended from the long dead warlords that long dead jerks bought slaves from in the first place.
Maybe it's a vague idea of what the people in their nation are like, but I'm willing to bet that far more men envisioned their mothers, wives, and sisters than envisioned Uncle Sam.
That's life.
Turning it into a pendulum won't do anybody any good. It will only disenfranchise many, and taint the achievements of the beneficiary.