The thing that gets often overlooked in the whole discussion is that there’s a huge difference between accepting a persons choices about their health and appearance and condoning them. You know what also causes cancer? Just about everything. But those who enjoy working with cars and combustion engines, or those who like building and painting models- those who like to sunbathe- they don’t face the response the obese do to their potentially cancer causing habits. Smoking anything can cause cancer- yet across the nation law and society are opening up to marijuana use despite the fact that while we can argue edibles and the like- there is literally no “healthy” way to smoke weed that doesn’t increase your risks of health complications.
Think of all the things- every day things for many people- that pregnant women are asked to give up for the health and safety of their fetus and baby. These things aren’t good for their health either in general- they just aren’t as dangerous to an adult in general as to a fetus or baby.
The point is- acceptance is about accepting other people are adults. They make choices for themselves. If a person chooses to or happens to be in a state of obesity- we can accept that THEY chose that the same as we can accept some people drink a beer every day after work, or eat fatty red meat regularly, eat processed foods with chemicals known to be carcinogens or have other potential risks- or even that someone would choose to be a police officer or an Alaskan crab fisher- occupations with inherently higher danger than most.
Adults can make their own decisions- live with the consequences. One can’t justify making the obese feel like crap- feel excluded, lectured- etc. over their personal choices for their bodies; while not treating people who don’t get up and walk around enough but sit long periods, people who don’t eat “organic non pesticide treated, non processed” foods that way too. Is that what we want? A country where everyone just lectured and legislates to anyone else who isn’t living up to what they consider the “standard” of basic self care?
How does that work? Do vegans or paleos or whatever get to paint anyone who doesn’t follow their idea of a “health conscious” and “responsible” diet as self endangering and in need of “saving”? Do people who get the recommended exercise get to treat those who don’t the way we treat the obese? Why should people have to apologize to others for what they do to themselves? You don’t have to LIKE their choices, you don’t have to understand them or even agree- but what business to you are choices another makes about their health?
The biggest problem with the "Fat Acceptance Movement" is that it normalises being fat/obese, which is in itself very dangerous let alone for our future generations. By that token of what you said about them accepting the consequences of their lifestyle shouldn't they then relinquish the right to medical help with medical problems they've brought upon themselves with their shitty lifestyle choices, rather than further burdening the system especially if they're not willing to help themselves and will keep on making their terrible choices?
@peachyy- I would say no- and let you explain why by answering this question: should someone who gets elective surgery- implants, liposuction- and later has an issue- ruptured implant- cancer from a leak, infection- internal bleeding- should we just let them die for their shitty and dangerous life choices? Should a person who chooses to work in an office- who doesn’t observe proper ergonomics, take regular breaks and stand up ever 10 minutes, stares at a screen- do we not burden the system treating their eyes or their backs or their hearts from the damage those things cause? When a person gets rotten teeth do we say the dentist shouldn’t treat them because their poor diet and dental care or habits did it to them?
The very idea you’d bring that up illustrates the unfair attitudes and bias towards the obese. We treat criminals who are shot, cut up by fence wire- we treat people for doing “jackass” style and OBVIOUSLY danger behaviors. But we can’t treat the obese? What about the kid with the tattoo or body piercing that gets infected or causes an allergic reaction? Should we not waste a doctors time on the co sequence of their choice? What about the motorcyclist or the car driver who is “at fault,” do we say “there were risks- real risks they knew that exceed the risk of walking or public transit- which are also healthier- so good luck with that fractured skull. Maybe tea tree oil will help?
People take risks. We all do. Every day. That chemically treated or processed food you ate is a cancer risk or other health risk. Sos that alcohol. That nail polish and the solvent you used to take it off? Cancer risks. See someone outside not wearing SPF to get the mail? Cancer risk. But we don’t as a society like the vitriol and disdain upon those drinking from BPA plastics or those with chemically treated hair, those walking around without sunscreen- the way we love to just jump on the obese or those we decide look obese. The overweight person with a good blood pressure and high O2 stats and good vitals will get a snarky comment or a lecture aimed at them today. The “average” looking person with the arteries like stone and clogged- with a BP so high they take pills, the skinny person with fatty liver disease who drinks every day after work- they aren’t going to face the ridicule or scorn as a person with the extra weight.
Most people aren’t going to mock a small aircraft pilot- who’s hobby makes them at a higher risk. The motor cycle rider might get an occasional comment or lecture but is just as likely to be seen as cool or left alone by people who wouldn’t get on a bike themselves but are just as likely to shrug and say: “it’s your life.”
I actually think that, yes, if you think somebody does need "saving" from something you think is harmful to them, you should absolutely say something and not turn a blind eye. They can choose to ignore you, but if you say nothing, you're basically saying, "I don't care enough about you to take a moment of my time to try to help you." Of course, you should do it out of a place of love and in a nice way - a condescending lecture isn't going to convince anyone. They can disagree with you and go on doing their thing, and that's okay. And, obviously, there's a time and place for these conversations.
I recently lost my grandmother, a very strong and otherwise healthy lady, to stage-4 lung cancer at a young age because she was a chronic smoker. Now whenever I see someone smoking, I feel compelled to stop and share my story. I've never gotten a negative reaction - I usually get a "Thanks, I needed that" or a "I've really been meaning to quit". You never know, you might really help someone!
I suppose that’s gotta be one of those agree to disagree philosophies- given the evangelical nature of your life view. We have several thousand years worth of history of war, oppression, and conflict to illustrate the results when a group of people decides its their job to tell a bunch of other people how to live “for their own good.” I suppose had you lived a couple hundred years back you could have brought “civilization” to the “savage” natives of North America, or enlightened them to “proper” religion. Slightly before that and maybe it could have been the pacific islands or South America. Perhaps long ago the inquisition or the crusades?
I feel you’ll probably point out some- not all- but some of those are primarily religious based and not science based- but what’s the difference? Science only deals in theory- what’s “healthy” in one decade is not the next and vice versa- but the principal is the same regardless because those who believe their god is the only way to an eternal paradise believe Steiger than any scientist since religion believes in absolute truth and scientists are always looking for the next advancement of truth-
Really it doesn’t matter- it’s the same deal. Someone who “knows better” telling you to do it their way. But- two points of fact to your anecdote- a person is relatively unlikely out of simple courtesy let alone a desire to avoid a debate or fight while just trying to go about their business- to treat you negatively in light of an anecdote about your dead relative. I also wonder- how many people you e had that conversation with who have actually quit? Because see- the success rate for quitting smoking is relatively low, even with therapy and or medication. So if you have some latent talent- or your story is just so touching that you have actually resulted in people quitting- wow. For the sake of humanity as well as likely your own finances you need to get a program going since smoking cessation is a multi million dollar industry that despite the costs still has very low success.
Of course- let’s say you DID actually have any percent of those people actually quit- the scientist in me would still need a study- to wonder how many were already trying to quit or committed to quit before you takes to them. Because if any quit- historical data on the subject suggests that it was already going to happen before you spoke to them if at all. So really- while anecdotally we could link the two as coincidentally related- the reality is that using statistics and previous data- the major effect of those conversations was likely to serve your emotional needs and any benefit was to you and not the person you spoke to- a need to exercise certain emotions surrounding the loss of a family member or the awareness of our own mortality such a loss brings up within us.
But- when such conversations do yield results they are usually between a person and someone they know, trust, hold in esteem. So again- we may agree to disagree- but personally I feel it acceptable to speak to a person one is close with on such issues if they are concerned- but not a stranger or near stranger.
What if I were to come up to you on the street and start telling you that you could get shoes or clothes for less? That I saw a different brand phone or laptop with similar specs for less? That you shouldn’t buy make up or jewelry or et tattoos but instead should invest your money? If I see you playing games or reading fiction and tell you that your time is better spent on studying career skills?
Who am I to judge what you do with your time and money? Who am I to know your life and make assumptions that as a stranger- I know what’s better than you do for you? Maybe you’d be fine with such intrusions and such discussions of your personal issues- but I’m not. How incredibly disrespectful is it for YOU to assume that because you would or wouldn’t care or desire something I would feel the same? And that brings us back to all those people in history who are generally remembered as villains for their sanctimonious and conceited philosophy that they needed to go tell someone minding their own business that their way was THE way.
There are 7 billion people on earth and growing. Different cultures, religions, personalities, values, attitudes. Part of getting along is allowing other people to live their lives. I’m glad you haven’t had a bad experience yet- but do it long enough you will. I can guarantee that if we met in real life and you decided my business was yours when I don’t even know you- that we would likely have an issue. It’s 2019. Smoking is bad. Anyone who doesn’t know it is refusing to accept it. Anyone who doesn’t know that this or that is unhealthy doesn’t WANT to know because all the information is out there. And you know- cold as it is- people die. People get sick. It can happen to anyone but statistically it will happen more to people who make bad choices.
But... what are we to do? Live their whole lives for them? Baby sit adults and remind them to eat right and exercise and not stare at the screen too long and get their sleep and to drink water instead of alcohol when they’re in the sun and at every turn? And how do the “Everyman vigilantes” and their well meaning ways know that 8 people haven’t already told this person the same thing you’re about to in the last hour? Are we to be hen pecked to death instead? By people who aren’t even our parent or spouse or nurse- but by total strangers wanting to lecture us on how we just aren’t living our lives as well as we could be?
And here’s a crazy thought- if you want to help these people- instead of wasting their time telling them things they likely already know and have heard- things that if they wanted to do they could have already done- why don’t you save that breath and use it on a senator or congress or some other agent of government and industry? If no one should smoke- why can you buy cigarettes? If no one should be obese- why is it so cheap and easy to eat like shit? If you’re so concerned about people making “wrong choices” why offer a choice at all?
It’s rally simple. You can either offer people a choice- knowing that means they may choose “poorly” or choose what you think is “wrong,” but the choice is there and theirs to make- or you can say “this is the way to do this..” and offer no choice. So why harass people of what you want is a law against it? Spend your time talking to someone who agreed to listen to you and your concerns like an elective official- not someone who never solicited your advice. I do fitness coaching, training, and nutrition as a side job. I volunteer my time pro bono or on a sliding scale when and where I see a person who needs help and likely can’t get it otherwise. The valuable lesson I shall share from my experience?
You can’t make a person do what they do not want to do on some level. You can give a person a fool proof plan to reach most any goal which is reasonable for that specific person- but they have to follow it. And that means they have to want to follow it for them. They have to be driven by personal motivations. You can encourage a person who’s looking for help, you can help break down obstacles to their success. You can help show them how to achieve their goals and break a seemingly overwhelming change into smaller, actionable items. But you can’t do it for them. Nagging them- 9/10 times? Doesn’t help. Can even make it worse.
Very well thought out response :) It's interesting that you bring up religion - my mom calls herself a "freelance minister", preaching at jails, retirement homes, wherever she can form a group. I used to do it with her (I'm a pretty horrible speaker though, so I would sing the hymns, and she would do the sermon, and together we'd have a little service), but I recently had a baby, so I've taken a break from it. But, even though I'm not actively holding church services, I still try to spread the gospel where I can. The guy helping me take my groceries to the car, the woman cutting my hair, whoever's next to me on a plane, whatever. I suppose you would say that is incredibly rude. And, you know what, it is! It's intrusive and personal and socially unacceptable. So why do I do it? Because if you truly believe that someone is in some sort of serious trouble, religious, health-realted, emotional, whatever, I think you should put aside whether or not it's rude to stick your nose in someone's
business and just concentrate on trying to help. Now with this, I have gotten extremely positive reactions, extremely negative reactions, and everything in between. Because every person is different, everyone's story is different, everyone's day is going differently. Yes, I am a stranger, no, it is none of business. For whatever it's worth, my mother and I are both autistic, and she jokes that having less of a "sense" of what is and is not socially appropriate probably makes evangelizing much easier. And are we really helping anyone? Who knows. Maybe no one! But if even one person was receptive, it was worth it. Now, it's worth noting that "we" are not "changing" anyone's mind. I believe only God can do that. But we can plant a seed. As far as smoking or exercising or anything else goes, you're absolutely right, unless the person wants to change for themselves, nothing is going to happen, and nothing you are going to say is going to spur them to action. But I still feel like you should
say something because you just never know who will be willing to listen. Is it conceited to think that your way is "right"? Almost assuredly. But I would certainly hope that if someone saw me doing something that they strongly felt wasn't right, they would care enough to kindly share their view with me. I have been approached several times in strange places by people who represented a different religion than mine, and whereas we did not see eye-to-eye and probably never would, I always felt so warmed that someone saw this mom strolling around with a baby in a stroller and thought, hey, I'm going to try to make a difference in this random lady's life :) They could have just stuck their head in the sand and ignored me, but they went outside their comfort zone to strike up a conversation about a less-than-conventional topic. I guess you would have been offended, and lots of people are and have every right to be. It's just a matter of opinion. I think it's better to try to help people,
I like you. I disagree with you- but I like you. It’s true that the right words to the right person at the right time can save lives, perhaps even souls. But- let’s speak on gods. Most hold that a person must accept a god or their representatives. Most gods are noble, good, and righteous. Most religions hold that a “Pasquale’s wager” doesn’t cut it. Repentance must be genuine- belief must be genuine. Now- the nature of faith is a tad “arrogant” or “conceited.” True faith requires one to believe- honestly and fully, that they are right. That nothing could ever prove them wrong. True believers can have crises of faith- but before and after- even perhaps during- they know in their heart and soul what is right- what is true. The nature of faith demands what some may call “conceit” or the like because without such surety “faith” is just hedging a bet. That doesn’t cut it in religion. And that’s ok.
But a noble and just and all powerful god is not a vacuum that sucks pet hair while cutting it. Such a god is not a used car. To peddle religion like a timeshare is, in my opinion- not just “rude” to those without or opposed to the interest- but it disrespects it’s own cause and it’s own god. It’s further compounded when- consciously or subconsciously- a person seeks to either “preach” their way into favor with a god, to make themselves feel good, or to put forth an image to others through their ministries. In short- Not all the money changers in temple profane through trade in cash- it’s just as disrespectful to a god to trade in emotions or whatever other self enrichment one might seek that isn’t a natural byproduct of doing “right.”
That said-the best way to spread a religion- especially in a nation of diversity and tolerance and freedom- is by doing. Living as a good disciple. Showing others what that life looks like, doing good works and extending kindness to ALL people regardless of their beliefs. When two people enter a relationship- there is a give and take. An escalation and mutual reciprocity yes? A kiss is most often where one moves in and another meets somewhere. This is common in human interaction. We extend a branch- and allow people to choose to take hold or not.
But now- let us say that one saw me in the streets and decided they like sex. Sex cheers them up, it’s their most fundamental joy and a grim belief that it’s the secret to happiness and peace. And they see me down and out- they decide I look as though I could use some dirty talk or a good fondle or what not? Well- if they come up, gently escalate from a greeting to a statement of intent, and on from there- I may or may not have interest. At any point before things get out of hand it’s easy enough to terminate without terrible offense. But say they walk up and start describing in great and graphic details all manner of lewdness, or just grope me? Now we are talking about assault- rape even.
It’s unwelcome. I was never given a chance to come to a decision on my own. Words are words and what people believe is what they believe. So that’s all apples to apples. Now you may find offense in me comparing overzealous evangelizing to physical assault- but as a person of faith- what is more sacred and important? Your body or your religious views? If you were forced to choose between your body and your connection to god- which would you choose? The answer seems self evident does it not? From a spiritual view point- nothing is more important or sacred than god and ones relationship with god. I hold plainly that such acts without consent are repugnant.
Freedom of speech says we may say as we like- within certain bounds such as slander etc. So you are as free to walk up to a person and speak to them of god as they are to walk up to you with slurs or sexual innuendo or tales of the horrors their demonic overlords call for upon the earth. But... you likely wouldn’t much appreciate that most days at most times no? A staple of showing a faiths virtue is to show others the respect you would want. To imagine that to someone else out there- your god is a sin and vice versa. That’s just manners. Some people have them, some don’t. Get a permit, preach on a street corner- as an American one can do this about anything they like. People listen or they don’t.
Extend the olive branch, start a conversation, if a person wishes to continue escalate it until and if they decide they are through. Go to jails and OFFER to speak to people on the virtues and salvations you have found and hope to bring them. Bring snippets of scripture and the like to your daily speech. If people don’t like it- they can stop talking to you. All that’s fine. Respectful and respectable. Slap religious stickers all over your car and wear religious prints and adornments and pray when and where you’re supposed to and invite people to church... but be respectful about it when you bring your beliefs to a person one on one. The Bible spells it out. Most holy books do. They say people have a choice if they want to be saved or not. This is a country that’s about respecting people’s choices.
Good or bad. We can only help people who WANT to be helped. People don’t quit drugs until they REALLY want to quit. They don’t change their lives unless they WANT to. So try and interest them and take it from there- but for goodness sakes- wait until they kiss back before jamming the tongue down their throat.
I recently lost my grandmother, a very strong and otherwise healthy lady, to stage-4 lung cancer at a young age because she was a chronic smoker. Now whenever I see someone smoking, I feel compelled to stop and share my story. I've never gotten a negative reaction - I usually get a "Thanks, I needed that" or a "I've really been meaning to quit". You never know, you might really help someone!
Fat Acceptance Movement: "STOP FAT SHAMING US!"
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