When the government does it it isn’t theft. Besides- if we don’t speak up for the rich, protect the rich, who will? Being rich is such a vulnerable position. If you spend all your money you could become not rich! Besides- it’s about rights. If we don’t protect the rights of the rich to their money, the government might come after money from the poor and middle class... like... taking social security funds. Or... not offering the same tax shelters the wealthy can afford. How can a middle class American pay rent if they can’t write off the island they bought huh? They might make a bunch of ways to get money from the less wealthy- like a penalty fee for not affording health insurance, or not being able to afford to pay fines. So yeah.. something something... it all makes sense and if you don’t agree you’re a communist something something.
so many things wrong with this. Taxes are NOT social security. They are two separate things. Social Security contributions are capped at a little over $100k per year so rich people are usually the only ones maxing their contributions in any given year. Oh and when they are eligible for pay outs the amounts are also capped well below what it would take for them to receive even close to what they contributed to. Most rich people don’t bother collecting SS.
What is theft is people leaching off a system they put nothing into. And I’m not going to claim that fraud is abundant but it happens. Hell there are enough legal “loop holes” to get SS without ever paying in.
And let’s not forget that the Boomers are one of the biggest generations to start retiring so the lack of contributors to meet the needs of the recipients so going to cause issues.
And that’s not even the whole story but yeah, taxes and SS aren’t the same.
@heywood- could you... quote the part of that where I said taxes and social security were the Same thing? Are you aware that fines and social security are also not the same thing? Read again. Perhaps slower the second time. The reference to taxes and fines and other things are reference to the fact that our financial system favors the wealthy and burdens the poor to a greater extent. Specifically with taxes the reference was to all the tax shelters that the lower and middle class either can not afford, or at those income levels are essentially useless but at higher income levels can shield most of your earnings.
Let me put it another way- if you make enough money you can effectively pay far less than a percent of your total wealth and less even than the lowest tax brackets for those making 1/10 your earnings, simply by being smart with your money. A person making 30-40k does not have the ability to leverage most of these shelters and cannot get maximum results because of how the system is designed.
Social Security is going to bankrupt us. We barely have enough workers to support the retirees, and there won't be nearly enough to support us, or even our own parents. Best let people keep the product of their own labors and plan for their own futures, because the bubble that is Social Security's viability popped a long time ago, and the longer we put it off the more it is going to hurt.
There is a time to keep trying, and there is a time to face the music.
I mean every other first world country is somehow making it work. Maybe having companies like amazon who are making BANK pay their fare share would help ya know ?
Every other first world country is dependent on mine for defense, aid, trade, and emergencies. Maybe we ought to pull that before chasing our moneymakers into their waiting arms.
So are you advocating for reducing the military expenses and instead investing that in some healthcare / education reforms that the USA direly needs ? Because that doesn't sound like half a bad idea !
You are operating under the assumption there is a social security trust fund. There isn’t. It was raided in the 60’s and now all payroll taxes go into the treasury and social security is paid out of the treasury. All working stiffs today are paying social security for retirees. It is wrong on so many levels and if a private investment fund did this they would all be jailed for running a pyramid scheme.
COMMMMUNIIIISM!!! That is what you will hear. Forget that’s closer to socialism. Most people who use the words don’t know what they mean and use “3rd world” as a synonym for “poor.” But if we had the government run investments for private citizens retirement.... then they’d have to use military and political devices to make money for everyone and not just connected people! It would be madness.
It’s a sound principal. But it is flawed. When the individual may do as they please- we have 2 social problems. Firstly is when an individual uses their money in a way that harms others or takes away others ability to do as they please. This could include you buying a secluded dream property and me opening a garbage dump next to you, or all around you because you couldn’t afford the property around yours. It could include someone buying up local businesses and refusing to hire you, and using their wealth and influence to pressure others to do so.
There is also social harm in just letting people do as they like. What if I buy land above the water table for an entire region and pollute the ground water with hazardous chemicals? What if Someone decides to use their money to fund terrorism or activities that could bring harm to people? What if you lease land so that it isn’t in A legal jurisdiction and run a child brothel?
These are extremes but they illustrate the point that we can’t simply just let people do whatever they want with their money. The military is a perfect example. Why isn’t the military ran that way? Don’t like the weapon or body armor you were issued? You can’t just buy another as you choose. We don’t just pay soldiers $100k plus a year and say “ok- we are going to charge you for travel to and from bases and on mission. We will charge room and board, ammo, support, and you pay for your training- but you can choose whatever makes you the most effective soldier. Aka cart.”
The idea seems laughable doesn’t it? That wouldn’t work. It’s such a horrible idea. We can’t just pay soldiers and say “well- sorry you got wounded in the field but you shoulda saved up and you can’t afford a medic/corpsman/etc. so... suck it up or get a loan...” “out of ammo? Shouldn’t have bought a play station.”
The military is ran for the public good. We have to make sure our troops get where they are needed, have supplies- and we are bad at that. We don’t do well enough taking care of our troops and their families. But- it wouldn’t work to well to change over to a capitalist structure in the military would it? Our fighting force wouldn’t be very effective. The same is true of society at large. We serve each other not just ourselves.
They used to call that civics. It was taught at home, in school. When we went into WW2, everyone understood. You didn’t have to be in the military. You didn’t talk about certain things, you did without certain things, you did your duty as an American citizen to support the military in supporting your ability to enjoy life. Society feeds the military and the military feeds society. We all serve the flag if we are US citizens and if we do not- we should renounce that citizenship. That’s called civics. We aren’t children, and we can’t always do what we want because even civilians have a duty. We have forgotten this.
We aren't talking about that. We're talking about Uncle Sam putting a gun to my head and saying they need my money for someone else's retirement, nevermind that they also took THEIR money, and the fact that the pyramid scheme is long bankrupt.
It's antithetical to everything this nation is. It's a baby step to communism, it's bald-faced authoritarianism, it's downright insulting to all people who actually want to be in charge of their own life.
You keep your nanny state, I'll keep my liberty.
And I suppose that no one owes anything for the things they enjoy about their country? No one has any responsibility to any other human but themselves? If you see a man dying in the street- you have no responsibility to help him or get him help if you are able? It’s a personal choice wether you want to be bothered to help him? That’s what I’m talking about. About the responsibility members of a society have to others. The responsibility citizens of a nation have to that nation to give back for the blessing of their nation, to cooperate to make their nation great.
There's a limit. The United States was founded on the ideals of personal liberty, and by God we've bled for it. Me? I am obligated to help a dying person I come across, I volunteered for that responsibility. I chose to give back to this nation. And as much as I don't like that many won't help others, I will never condone forcing them to take up that hardship. Not even for me or mine.
Clearly, a lot of people would be happier as subjects to foreign lords, more power to them. Over there.
I have my own money that I do as I please with.
If I'm accused of a crime, I'm entitled to a speedy and fair trial, with the presumption of innocence.
If I decide I want to participate in a gay orgy, I won't be stoned to death by the state.
If someone steps to me, I can hold my ground.
I decide to post up on a street corner and scream "Fuck the power/Trump/Cortez/God", I won't be abducted by men in black and sent to a reeducation camp.
My sister and mother are free women, not property of my father.
If some Frenchmen in Belgium make a declaration, it has no bearing on me.
Product? I have my own guns and ammo, to keep what's mine. And so my friends and brothers, so I dare you, Pelosi, the UN, China, and everyone who wants to take that all from me to just try. C'mon, Comrade Brownshirt, you feeling froggy? Then leap.
Oh man bronsoval. The concept of freedom, the types and expressions of freedom, wether humans even HAVE freewill and wether the idea of freedom is itself moot... that’s a big enough pie to chew without throwing in communism and capitalism and all that.
We at least think and feel we are free. Freedom is a paradox. More freedom is less freedom at points. In s complete freedom- anarchy, you are not “free” because you have no safety. You can’t do whatever you want in practical terms because a stroll down the beach can get you killed, the dream house you built can be destroyed or taken from you. In a theoretical near omnipotent totalitarian nanny state you aren’t free to go where you please and when, you aren’t free to think and say and express yourself- but your kids can walk the streets any hour without worry. You can pursue yours for goals without the fear you’ll be homeless or unable to get medical care.
Not even in nature are you “truly free” because well- wether you choose to or not you die when you die. You must eat and drink eventually. You can’t decide to be a marine mammal. There is not “total freedom.” All freedom has terms and conditions, sacrifices associated. There are shades of gray and compromise where we find imperfect balance between what we can do- and what we must do or pay to do so. This is a law of reality as sure as physics. We tend to be happy when we trade things we don’t mind for those types of freedom that matter. When we can do the things we want and the things we can’t do we don’t want to anyway. When the price we pay isn’t greater than the benefit to how we want to live.
Communism v capitalism is complex but easier to sum up. The difference is that communism only works on paper, and can only avoid crashing in on itself if it exists in a bubble, or if it is the sole and only system on earth and a collective or administration has complete control of all private and personal dealings and facets.
He mark of a communism in the real world involves strict control of information and communications. To date no communism has survived free information. The most powerful communism in the world fears a search engine and a cartoon bear. And even for all their efforts they have shifted more and more towards capitalist practices and markets.
How many Capitalists defect to communist countries (not how many people from capitalist countries fly communist flags while enjoying the life style of a capitalist existence- but how many actually leave?) vs how many communists defect or try to defect or leave communist countries?
How many capitalist world powers of the post Industrial Age have become failed states? How many communist or socialist states (or some mix with heavy central market control) have?
Tl:dr- freedom is complex and relative. Everyone has freedom and everyone doesn’t. The universal truth in realist terms and not philosophical terms is a person is only as free as the amount of force they can command to get what they want. The difference between communism and capitalism is that. Capitalism is a realistic and achievable model that doesn’t require complete central control of the entire world to function.
Your biggest mistake is thinking we're a democracy. Nothing good comes from a democracy, it's just 51 enslaving 49.
As for politics? SCOTUS is taking a 2nd Amendment case, POTUS served Thanksgiving dinner to my deployed brothers, the economy is still awesome, China is still panicking. Honestly, they've been trying to impeach POTUS since before he took office, but that motherfucker has been helping good things happen ever since, particularly in curtailing the things that make it hard to make an honest living.
One last thing, it ain't the State putting ads on your phone or giving your info to apple.
@bronsoval- there is no confusion on my part between democracy and capitalism. Democracy almost inevitably leads to capitalism or mixed capitalism however- such as a capitalism with socialist policies. The individual has their own self interest. That’s why capitalism works. It reflects the nature of man. It can be ugly. So can human nature. You mention the acquisition of wealth and such. We must understand that the fundamental basis of power or control is force. Always has been. Maybe always will be.
In cave man days- whoever could beat up anyone else got their way. Then we made teams. Now it wasn’t whoever was the greatest warrior- it was whoever had the greatest ability to gather great warriors and get their loyalty- take care of them. Management. If you are a great warrior and you defeat the leader and take over- of you are not a great leader then your whole team loses fights, doesn’t eat, has problems. They get unhappy. You get ousted by the collective force or the team disbands or is destroyed. We more or less socially sorted out that leadership and skill at any task weren’t the same thing. A leader can be skilled at certain things asides leading, but being the best at any skill a leader does not make.
This fundamental law of force translates to wealth. Wealth is a stand in for force- “power,” in society. Money is just paper violence. The ability to get what you want. The question then becomes- what choices will people make? Who has the force? A communism is still administered by a government. Still has a military and a police force. Most every large scale communism and socialism ever has still had a class system. Those who control the power have still made the rules.
The similarity in effectively all systems of government is that whoever has the power gets what they want. People in power tend to want to stay in power. So that’s usually the first thing they do- create a system that keeps the elites elite. How they do it varies. The fact they do it is the same. Next they feed their appetites. Did the Soviet leadership or Cuban Leadership or Chinese leadership etc. etc. live as the proletariat? No. 2 laws- one for those with power. One for those without.
The central theme of communism- power to the people- sure. Great idea. The problem is that regardless- the power always ends up with the people who can apply the force. How many workers strikes were there in the USSR? What did that process look like when the people exerted their power hmmm? It’s an illusion too.
Tl:dr- the difference is clear from the start. No one has to hold a gun to your head and tell you to be a capitalist. It comes naturally to self serving human nature, to human wants and individualism. Communism is usually predictable. Revolution to force communism. Militarization to force people to adhere to communism. Corruption and rejection in clandestine by the individual against communism, collapse.
Communism requires explicit participation. If you do not fill your role then it doesn’t work. If you choose other than that which is ordained it doesn’t work. Capitalism is adaptive. The only requisite is that you have a desire to live and a desire to have more. Some of the harshest environments on earth have strong “socialist” tendencies as the survival of one requires an effort by all- and yet these societies adapted a natural capitalism in barter, open markets, individual property rights and so on.
End of communism v capitalism post:
Capitalism isn’t something that is imposed. It is something that naturally develops anywhere that humans are free to control property and value. It can be perverse- even human lives can be assigned a value in money and bought and sold. However communism does not come about naturally or organically. It isn’t intuitive to human nature and a communism is inherently repressive because you need a method to force people to go against their own natures and desires. Capitalism does control people to an extent- but it is the carrot, you’re trapped and manipulated by your own desires and promises of seeing them come true. Communism is the stick. You WILL fall in line if you do not want to or you WILL be removed from the collective for “the greater good.”
What is theft is people leaching off a system they put nothing into. And I’m not going to claim that fraud is abundant but it happens. Hell there are enough legal “loop holes” to get SS without ever paying in.
And let’s not forget that the Boomers are one of the biggest generations to start retiring so the lack of contributors to meet the needs of the recipients so going to cause issues.
And that’s not even the whole story but yeah, taxes and SS aren’t the same.
There is a time to keep trying, and there is a time to face the music.
Its like how the death sentence isn't murder.
You keep your nanny state, I'll keep my liberty.
Clearly, a lot of people would be happier as subjects to foreign lords, more power to them. Over there.
If I'm accused of a crime, I'm entitled to a speedy and fair trial, with the presumption of innocence.
If I decide I want to participate in a gay orgy, I won't be stoned to death by the state.
If someone steps to me, I can hold my ground.
I decide to post up on a street corner and scream "Fuck the power/Trump/Cortez/God", I won't be abducted by men in black and sent to a reeducation camp.
My sister and mother are free women, not property of my father.
If some Frenchmen in Belgium make a declaration, it has no bearing on me.
Product? I have my own guns and ammo, to keep what's mine. And so my friends and brothers, so I dare you, Pelosi, the UN, China, and everyone who wants to take that all from me to just try. C'mon, Comrade Brownshirt, you feeling froggy? Then leap.
As for politics? SCOTUS is taking a 2nd Amendment case, POTUS served Thanksgiving dinner to my deployed brothers, the economy is still awesome, China is still panicking. Honestly, they've been trying to impeach POTUS since before he took office, but that motherfucker has been helping good things happen ever since, particularly in curtailing the things that make it hard to make an honest living.
One last thing, it ain't the State putting ads on your phone or giving your info to apple.
Capitalism isn’t something that is imposed. It is something that naturally develops anywhere that humans are free to control property and value. It can be perverse- even human lives can be assigned a value in money and bought and sold. However communism does not come about naturally or organically. It isn’t intuitive to human nature and a communism is inherently repressive because you need a method to force people to go against their own natures and desires. Capitalism does control people to an extent- but it is the carrot, you’re trapped and manipulated by your own desires and promises of seeing them come true. Communism is the stick. You WILL fall in line if you do not want to or you WILL be removed from the collective for “the greater good.”