I mean... that’s kinda on track. The idea in humor is not to “punch down,” or in other words- not to pick on people or groups who have objectively a harder lot. One of the things that distinguished between “joking about” and “picking on” is station. Peers might “roast” each other. It wouldn’t be so good natured watching a room full of wealthy and established celebrities make fun of the everyday failures and misfortunes of those with much less than them. It would be like watching a room full of average people make fun of a homeless person.
So when one is a member of a group that is privileged to another.... now- YOU might not be privileged. There are plenty of people in the minority who are doing well- better than average. Will Smith might not be suffering quite the same as you are for example. And plenty men have it tough despite being in a group that is privileged in society. People who know you and your life know this. People who don’t.... do not. But regardless of individual circumstances- being in a privileged group means whatever challenges one faces either aren’t because of their group- or their group offers more benefits than challenges.
"The idea in humor is not to “punch down,”"
I disagree. It might not be some people's idea of humor, but its definitely still humor.
You can pick on someone by joking about them and that can be humorous.
I didn’t dv you- and while I agree in semantics that “humor” to each of us is whatever we find humorous- even if that is the letter “Q” or a pizza with an odd number of pepperonis- I wasn’t precise in my phrasing. Many people find being mean humorous. They might find punching an old lady funny.
So you are correct in precision of concept. As it applies to this discussion “humor” was used to refer to that which can generally be accepted as “just a joke” versus picking on someone.
Lol. I see I must be very precise. You can. Anyone can “pick on” anyone. Emotions aren’t inherently linked to “station”- so it two equally sensitive people- being told something mean by the president or a random stranger hurts just as bad emotionally. But in terms of generalization- not at an individual level...
It’s a metaphor for aggression. What we are doing with humor of this nature is “challenging” a person or group. A 200lb adult warrior in full battle load out walking up to a 90lb sedentary pre teen and saying “Hey, let’s tangle...” is not generally held as acceptable. The position of the pre teen compared to the adult here is so unbalanced that it is clearly not a “fair fight” to pick.
Of course the idea of “poking the bear,” of a person of objectively poor odds teasing a force capable of superior retaliation is long standing. A way to show bravery. If Muhammad Ali in his prime was somehow able to fight Millie Bobby Brown- why would he agree? If he loses he will be disgraced in the public eye. If he wins he will be the guy who beat up a little kid. Win/lose/die- Millie Bobby Brown would likely be immortalized and held as a hero just for showing up.
The idea at the core here is that when you “punch down” you are fighting someone who isn’t on your level. When you “punch up” or equal- there is not the sense of injustice that a force with superior position is piling yet another thing on top of already burdened and disadvantaged shoulders.
You have to examine the truth. Most comedy is rooted in truth. Things we can relate to, things that ring true for the human condition. People generally want to feel good from comedy- even “dark comedy” is rooted in unpleasant truth- and making the best or finding the laughs where they are scarce.
When we make fun of people, we generally want to feel like those people “deserve it.” A rich person making fun of poor people is generally viewed as a person who has a lot making fun of people who do not. Most people don’t like that person. A poor person making fun of rich people goes over better. Why? Most people aren’t rich. People can say: “yeah. Those rich folks have life so easy. They deserve this.”
People may have different perceptions. Teens might tease a kid but justify it because they are “creepy” or “off” or someone said they saw that kid do XYZ or whatever. As we age and mature- we usually change that frame of reference.
I understand the notion, I disagree with the premise that someone being more privileged makes them a different "weight class" (or whatever) when it comes to being made fun of.
So I should have mentioned for precision that I am speaking of MATURE minded people and humor. Decent humans with empathy who are also mentally grown up don’t punch down or try not to. It’s not nice to punch at all- but no one is perfect and of yore going to be mean, being mean to someone you can say “deserves it,” and who you can say is otherwise doing just fine in the world, that is probably better than the opposite. Best would be we not make fun of each other. Perhaps. Maybe not though. Making fun of people serves as a way to let off steam, and it is often the only power that those without power over another group have.
Bill Gates doesn’t have issues with his neighbors. He can make them go away, or he can go away. He can buy an island and fill it with only people he likes. The more power/money you have, the more you can make the world, or the parts you see- look how you want it to. Billionaires don’t have to joke about lines at the airport or terrible flight food because if they don’t like it they can change it instead of complaining.
Sometimes people disguise something they are uncomfortable saying as a joke- an insecure boss might joke about you always being late but they are saying the same thing a direct boss would be just less direct- “I’ve noticed you come in late a lot....” This isn’t making fun of you- it’s making a joke. Key difference. Your coworkers aren’t likely to think less of you or anything of it if you sit at happy hour making fun of the hated office boss- but if your boss makes fun of you and your “stupid walk...” or “how you say this word weird...” in front of everyone- that’s generally going to be seen as inappropriate.
It is very complex, power, history, etc. etc. all
Play a role in the whole thing. A joke about Naru invading France has a totally different slant than one about Germany invading France. To this particular subject- there is a history between races in America. The self identified “white race” imposed many hardships on those labeled “black/colored/etc.” this history goes back to almost the start of the nation and was still VERY strong in the 20th century- with aspects and legacy enduring into the 21st century.
So examining who “deserves it-“ let’s look at that? Has the “white race” in America done terrible things to “Blacks?” Yes. Are there still many who consciously or unconsciously do harm? Yes. As a tool to bring these issues to light without being direct and possibly confrontational can comedy serve as a vehicle to make those unaware become aware of these issues? Yes.
Ok. So... what did “Blacks” do to “deserve” being picked on? And what if those things wash out the wrongs done on a broad and general racial level? Hmmmm.... I’ll wait.
So in the end we run into just... maturity? Decency? Making fun of something for just being “different,” making fun of something for being “disadvantaged” etc etc. when done at “face value” are simplistic and immature methods of humor. Using humor to relieve tensions- especially when one doesn’t have the power to self actualize changes- is a human thing. In the relationship between races in America there is a lot of tension old and new. The tension between blacks and whites comes mostly from wrongs done to blacks, stereotypes of blacks, prejudices against blacks. The tension on the white side is primarily that of having an elephant of wrong in the room and not wanting to do anything about it except maybe say: “sorry about that. But it’s been long enough right? Let’s move on...”
@garlog- I can’t reconcile the position. Perhaps you could help? Your reply included the premise. You say: “being more privileged...” Well... yes. One group is more privileged. Privilege- “a special right, advantage, or immunity of a certain group...”
More- “more.”
So I mean... that’s... it.
If two people box and one is privileged to use both hands while the other has to have on tied behind their back... the opposite of privilege is disadvantage. You mention weight classes- that’s what those are. A ranking to prevent severe advantage or disadvantage in a fight. Challenging the quadriplegic kid to a skateboarding contest just shows you are weak or an asshole. You have the privileges that give you advantage. It would not be a fair contest.
Well- their is no call to be rude or name call. If you don’t want to have this conversation then don’t. If you don’t think the metaphor is apt, then say so as you did there. I’ve explained why I believe it is apt although not perfect (metaphor seldom is- it requires a certain flexibility and is primarily intended as a vehicle for concept- not a direct analog.) You’ve not explained why you believe otherwise and resorted to name calling. But- in the spirit of this discussion and because you are punching up at me, I forgive it. I am in a position to do so, thusly I shall. Happy new year.
Lol. I suppose everyone just feels on guard all the time- whatever a person believes on any subject there are movements to challenge it. Factor in that information, humor, and other subversive devices are being used to normalize or spread various agendas and I can understand how one could be defensive- but honest and open dialog is key to getting past all that- at least in my opinion. People can disagree but still be respectful, still at least try to understand the other side.
No, I was just irked that he was continuing to use a metaphor that I was relatively (though less than I thought after reading things back) clear about not accepting its premise.
I disagree. It might not be some people's idea of humor, but its definitely still humor.
You can pick on someone by joking about them and that can be humorous.
Play a role in the whole thing. A joke about Naru invading France has a totally different slant than one about Germany invading France. To this particular subject- there is a history between races in America. The self identified “white race” imposed many hardships on those labeled “black/colored/etc.” this history goes back to almost the start of the nation and was still VERY strong in the 20th century- with aspects and legacy enduring into the 21st century.
More- “more.”
So I mean... that’s... it.
you are either offended or out of arguments to defend yourself with.