Let’s be clear down both sides of the aisle then. There are always going to be loud and rude people, it’s always been this way and it always will be. Not even getting into the fact that only straight men are aloud to be this way without open backlash, we need to remember that for every “strong” woman like Zuby says there are dozens of women who are striped of their rights around the world. The loud are not always the majority, and calling women obnoxious when they stand up for themselves makes you look weak and backwards.
I would agree. There is nuance- anyone can be obnoxious, overbearing, stubborn, self centered etc. BUT- the point of highlighting “strong women,” especially when it comes to men not being able to handle them- isn’t to label obnoxious people strong- it is that many times when a woman asserts herself in the way a man would- she is considered obnoxious when a man wouldn’t be in the same circumstances.
Now- there are “traditional” gender roles which dictate men act assertive, aggressive, etc. they dictate how men and women handle personal space, etc. An example of where a woman might be considered obnoxious by such a man might be where a man pulls out her chair and she tells him she doesn’t want that done. Traditionally- it was “good manners” to do so. However- most men would not pull out a chair for another man, open his car door etc. in fact- if we think about many of the ways that men often treat women it would be rather odd to behave that way with another man by traditional standards.
However a “strong woman” may or may not appreciate such traditions based on antiquated gender roles. A man traditionally helped a lady take off her jacket, he might take her clutch, phone, etc from her. As a man- I can tell you that if you walk over and start removing my jacket, or try to take my phone from my hands etc. while I am getting settled that we would have a problem. If I am surprised I might not react courteously despite your considerate intentions because well... your coming into my personal space and taking my belongings.
The response to our comments just shows that not everyone is willing to accept how society treats the genders. I was not saying that this man was claiming all strong women were obnoxious; I was using his point to make a larger one on how SOME people will overstep the bounds and say a woman who speaks at all is a nuisance. Obviously, I don’t care for people who think this way, but I’m not about to attack him because yes annoying people are annoying.
But I will speak up for those who can’t or won’t. At a bar a woman is meant to sip respectfully and not get crazy but it’s fine if a man gets a little out of hand and rips on his wife. or on a note that actually impacts ones daily life women and children are killed and mutilated in Foreign countries if they can’t obey the rules of their gender. Likewise, in America a woman who quietly goes about her day not speaking to or standing up to anyone is fine, but a woman who protests for rights (hers or others) is mockingly called an sjw and told she’s ugly or too loud.
In the same vein men can speak and be loud all they want, but if caught by the wrong person at an lgbt rally they’ll be ridiculed as feminine and/or gay. As a western society we have drawn a line saying women must be quiet and depend on others and men must be strong, independent, and can be loud. If someone violates these codes we mock them on the internet and gossip about them to our friends. You can say we’re a civilized Country and that this all ended in the 20th century, but you’d be blind to the struggles of people everywhere.
I think it is sad someone would downvote what you’re saying. But I appreciate that you aren’t deterred. I agree strongly. There are differences in the way genders are treated in society- anyone who says otherwise is blind. All you have to do is watch a heterosexual man interact with another man the way he would with a woman and you can see it. In the right bar with some alcohol involved- you’d likely see a fight.
When someone walks up to you randomly on the street- aren’t most people thinking “what do they want?” “What are they pushing?” We can almost universally agree as a society, in memes and candid discussion people discuss dislike and discomfort at religious missionaries or mall kiosk salespeople etc. coming up and trying to sell us something wether they think we will benefit from it or be interested or not. People try to avoid it. So then why do those same people get upset when someone points out that maybe it’s not so different walking around being hit on?
Well- regardless- some roles a man can’t actually deal with a woman being an “equal” and choosing to defy “traditional gender roles,”, and sometimes a woman really is just being obnoxious. But as you say- no one here is saying all men are too weak to stand with an equal, but the way this is written undermines the core of the issues involved and paints a biased picture even if the language can be seen as balanced the tone is not.
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· 4 years ago
Some of these comments seem to not understand the person was saying not all "strong independent women" are strong women they're just rude and think it's okay because they're "standing up for themself" instead of standing up for themself.
Like if a dude wants my number I might say "I would prefer to not give you my number" or "no I don't want to" not "omg ur soooo ugly why would you think I would ever give you my number" or "wow I'm sure you try that with every girl" or "get away you creep" like you can be assertive and not a giant phallus about it
That was the whole point. It wasn't "woman are mean when they're assertive and I want them to be passive and agree"
Some- SOME- people might hold that viewpoint but this meme wasn't saying that at all
Also it's a joke man cmon
I think the reason people are reacting that way is because often assertive, “I don’t want to give you my number,” is called bitchy. Someone mentioned it, behaviors that are acceptable for men are not for women, and deemed aggressive and “insufferable.”
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· 4 years ago
But most of the time it isn't, a lot of people that think "oh I'm being assertive" is being demanding.
Only a few garbage people would think that and that's why I also put "some-SOME people might hold that viewpoint"
Like yea a few people might be gross enough to think that but most will go "understandable"
Sure there is a case for both. Some people lack self awareness to a point we might colloquially just say “they are crazy” because their detachment from reality is so severe. The person who despite all evidence believes they are “smooth” with the opposite sex, the person who considers themselves intelligent and well informed but can easily be picked apart by documented fact, the nature of hypocrisy is excusing ourselves for what we do not tolerate in others- so yes. Some women will claim to be rejected for being “strong” the same as some people might claim they were rejected for the opposite- a partner being “too weak to handle them.” In many breakups both partners- regardless of the circumstances- will come to paint themselves as the innocent or less culpable party even if objectively they were in the wrong.
That being said- as I said in another reply- it is just as often that a man’s rejection of a “strong woman” isn’t because she is a total train wreck of a person- but because she wasn’t not “feminine enough” in her behavior. Because she asserts what she wants and what she does not, and does not qualify it or soften it. She likely didn’t go to the extremes of being abusive- instead of “oh gee.. no thank you... I would say yes but...” or some ego stroking she says: “no.” Or “no, why would you think that?”
The latter may seem abusive or uncalled for to the insecure. But it is a legitimate question without malice. “OMG you’re ugly no...” is very much rude. There isn’t anything constructive there. But if a guy comes up to a woman out of nowhere, at the gym or movies etc- and she asks him “why would you think this is ok?” She isn’t being rude. HES being rude. Why would he think that is ok? Some people- but not most- walk up to total strangers and try to start conversations. And that’s a valid answer: “in a friendly person. I like to meet people...” “I’m new in town...”
But keys be honest? If a guy walks up to a woman he does not know and starts talking to her, without any legitimate business to do so- not that they are in a transaction or in some activity where that is normal platonic behavior commonly observed- what made him think this woman would be an interesting person to talk to? MAYBE she is wearing a band shirt? Something like that? Chances are not. Chances are that noticing she gets her tea the same way as you or whatever- is a way to open a door. You didn’t think she would be interesting to talk to- you thought she’d be fun to fool around or sleep with and were maybe hoping she might also be interesting to talk to. Perhaps if she was both- or at least the first one- you’d be in luck.
That’s pretty much literally it. “You look like someone I’d like to have sex with. Let’s see if we can Get along, and maybe have sex.” Flattering perhaps- but also somewhat annoying when one is conducting their daily business and has to repel guys walking up because they look like a good lay.
So the question why one feels that is appropriate is apt- and an intelligent and self aware male might answer that question by explaining their behavior, their motivations. That itself may lead to a conversation.
For example: Your partner buys you a gift you do not like. You tell them you don’t like it. You can be thankful, but it still will likely hurt them. But in the future, they have a better idea what to get you. You stopped them from wasting money on something you won’t like or use. The joy of gifts comes from giving someone a thing they will enjoy, and from Recieving something thoughtful you’ll enjoy. You can acknowledge the thought or effort of the gift but reject it. The alternatives are to keep it around- pretend to use it etc. who wins? Usually people suspect you do t like it but are in limbo about it by your mixed signals. Or regift it? And either way- what happens when they find out you don’t like it? They are still hurt but they wasted money. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do isn’t always the softest thing.
Tl:dr- “you’re ugly” is obviously rude and not constructive. Some people lack self awareness. By default- those people aren’t the ones likely to see something like this and think it applies to them. But strength comes in different flavors and politicians CEOs, executives, good Lawyers etc. tend to be nice people... and also not nice. They are direct, they are goal oriented, they challenge, confront, and do other things that are effective and often a necessity of their lives. A man might be known as “tough-“ like our current president- for steam rolling opposition. Some folks see a person like that and say they are rude regardless of gender- but a huge percentage of people see a man like that and say he’s an effective leader, the kind of guy you want to be in good with. A woman acting like that... even the ones who think it is ok for the man to do it will tend to disapprove when the woman does.
The tldr made more sense honestly. The comment was more of "women are-" and sounding feminazi-ish and the tldr was more informative.
My point was MOST people DON'T think that only some do, again I said that in the first comment. Not everyone sees trump as a leader most of the world sees him as rude. Most. Sure not all. With the comment it seemed as if a guy that walks up to me to talk solely wants sex and nothing else and any rejection makes the woman seem rude. The tldr did not look like that but the one paragraph made it seem as if that's what you were saying.
Strong women are fine people respect strong women. But if she's just a dick they won't. Like men, some people like protective boyfriends and they might see themselves as strong they might just be controlling.
The point of the comments were
Strong women and "strong women" are different and you seem to be saying people think strong women are "strong women" because they aren't strong because they should be docile so-
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deleted
· 4 years ago
They go "oh no you must be rude because you have opinions" only actual gross people ACTUALLY think that orrrr the feminazis that think "this is how every man thinks"
Not ever man is a creep or gross or wants a docile servant and not every opinated women is strong and independent and not a dick
@faithismrwhiskers- We agree on several points. Not all men are creeps. Well... lol, or at least they don’t act on their creepiness. Not all men who dump a woman do so because they don’t want a “strong woman,” and not every woman who claims that she was dumped for “being too strong” is correct- she might just be a nightmare, an actual nightmare with diagnosable personality or mental disorders. They exist. However- the narrative for far too long has been that of the “shrew.” It’s a decent catch all. Why’d they break up? Oh. She was crazy. Ok. Makes sense. We buy that one real easy in general.
The language of the original post is stilted. “Men are not afraid of strong women...” not.. some men. Not, most, men. All men. Now- “far too many women...” how many is far too many? I’d say one insufferable person is far too many for my tastes no? “Far too many” implies- without saying- we are talking about a large sample- perhaps even a majority. You must think of language when understanding. If ALL men are not afraid of strong women- the implication there is that NO man would ever break up with a woman because she was “strong.” Therefore- any man who breaks up with a woman, and that woman says she is a “strong woman”- she is by default insufferable and NOT a strong woman using this logic.
In other words- the only woman who could be a “strong woman” and NOT “insufferable,” AND be left by a man for her personality, would be a woman who does not speak about it. Wether you are or are not “strong” or “insufferable,” the moment you would say “this man is insecure” or “this man doesn’t want a woman as an equal..” or “this man isn’t strong enough to be my equal...” you have labeled yourself publicly as one of the “insufferable false strong women.”
Does that not seem convenient? A system of logic, by which a woman is automatically labeled as “crazy” or “insufferable” when she speaks against the man if he leaves her? He walks away justified to leave such a crazy broad- she walks away labeled as crazy, and the actual facts are immaterial unless one is both privy to and keen on delving into details of the relationship because the social idea this propagates is one where we are automatically labeling the woman insufferable if she says she was left for having opinions.
Do you even listen to yourself? Complaining that in your mind the post is over generalizing when literally the third sentence of your post is a sexist comment saying all men are creeps.
Okeee... so. The “lol” denotes a joke. “Lol” means “laugh out loud.” But- do you read? Because even if you were unaware of that (giving benefit of the doubt here,) or read it not as a jest- I said “not all men are creeps... or at least do not act on it..” what about that sentence is sexist? Do we know all men are not creeps? We don’t do we? I suspect not all men are creeps- but I cannot prove it, but one can be a creep, have creep tendencies or thoughts, but not act on them. It’s philosophical no? Like “is a person good if they do good for wrong reasons, or bad for good reasons” and so on. But you accuse me of reading what I want into language- and then ignore the language of what I wrote to interpret it as you want.
I spoke very specifically. I said “not all men are creeps...” OR that at least not all act on it. Did my writing imply to you that my meaning was all men are creeps? Huh. Unimaginable that there could be some substance to words beyond face value at a casual glance no?
The issue with the original post is not that it is overgeneralized. It is that it very specifically uses language in a way that sets up a logical scenario in which men are favored in their interactions with women. I walked you through it in my replies above. I an get more granular if the point is somehow missed.
For men we have created 1 bucket. It is “men.” That bucket, has all men in it. Everyone in that bucket doesn’t have a problem with strong women. Alternatively- it could mean “some, most, etc.” its irrelevant because we are saying 100% of Len without qualifier.
For women, we have created 2 buckets. One is for “insufferable women,” this bucket includes women claiming to be strong who are using the label “strong” as a mask for their deficiencies. The other bucket for women- includes women who are not told by a man that they are insufferable.
We can stop there. We already have enough. Who in this system decides wether or not a man is scared of strong women, or not? A man right? That’s the point isn’t it? We are saying: “if a woman says a man doesn’t like strong women- there is a good chance she is an insufferable mess who is jilted at a man leaving her for being that way...”
Ok. So men may label themselves afraid or not, and men may label women as strong or insufferable. So where in this equation can a woman have a voice? If she defends herself as saying she is a strong woman- this man’s defense is to say the word of the man invalidates that- she is in fact insufferable, not strong. She is mistaken about what strong means.
See- similar to how your reply to my post wasn’t to rebut any actual content or offer a defense, but to try to invalidate my point by coming up with a label that would make my words not meaningful. In your case- you chose to try and label me as both a hypocrite, and lacking self awareness. “If he doesn’t follow his own words, his words are invalid!” You thought- as you typed away.
Except... as pointed out. If you read what I said... I didn’t call men anything, and you’ve done a smashing job of illustrating the point. The attack is the refuge of those who are out of facts or words of substance. Silencing a person, invalidating their position, can be more easily achieved through such means when ones position is weak. The next step of course would be gas lighting. That’s where we start to make a person believe what we want them to believe. Women for instance were told what they could and could not do and many believed it after awhile. Planting the seed “maybe I’m not a strong woman... maybe I’m just insufferable... maybe that’s why...” a genius move. One doesn’t have to fight an opponents cause- they fight themselves. Silence is not discourse- it is imposition of will.
First, opening with insults shows you have no desire for an actual discussion so I'll keep this brief. I am addressing you and your behavior, not the post. Lol implies you find something funny, not that what you're saying is a joke. Furthermore, changing your position from not all men are creepy to not all men act on their creepiness implies that you do believe all men have an inherent creepiness, a clearly sexist remark. Please feel free to throw another diatribe at me as it seems to be all you really do on this site.
Where did I insult you? You accused me of not even reading what I wrote, yourself without seeming to read or at least comprehend it. I also did not say all men were creeps- I said at the very least not all men act on it if they are. Two very different statements no? Lastly- as I said before- your reaction to that innocuous statement proves my original point. By seeing sexism in my post you are doing the thing you are chastising me for doing to the original post. Read it again. Sound out the words if need be. I did not say all Len are creeps. I literally said we agree not all men are creeps- or at the very least do not act like creeps. What you saw and what I said are not the same. So you want to tell me again that The language used in a stately isn’t important, or do you want to continue to take the discussion off track to cover a failing argument on your part?
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deleted
· 4 years ago
You also made it seem like this guy said "every single man no matter what hates assertive women because they say they're strong but I don't like that"
He said "men" which doesn't apply or mean "every single man even criminals that abuse women" he just said 'men' because why tf would he start to say a JOKE that has some truth with
"some men (but of course not the ones that like are creepy and would like kinda do gross-but like the men that are actually-" dude that would ruin the joke as you are doing in an effort to be some kind of simp
It's a joke for one
For two women can be bitches no one likes that
We've already egged on incels and gross guys so we can egg on ourselves for being bitches and how people don't like that
If you read carefully I said that men could lean every man, some men, etc. it’s way back there so I don’t blame you for missing it. But again- like Felix- you are proving my point and by your comments are doing the same thing you accuse me of. Why is wrote is very different than what you believe I made it sound like. The fact you believe I made it sound a certain way illustrates that the language we use is very important because HOW we say something can leave the reader with a subconscious impression of what to take away from what we said.
Much like how in speech tone can change something from genuine to sarcastic and literally invert the meaning of the words we say to lean exactly the opposite of what those words mean at face value- when we write- the choice of words and what we do or do not say leads the reader to draw conclusions.
Despite that if you read my words very carefully I never said what he is saying- I said the tone one could read into it- you are here saying that I made it sound a certain way. But this is writing no? There is no tone to my voice. There are only words are there not? In theory they mean precisely what they mean by definition at face value. But that isn’t how it works is it? You and at least one other person feel o said something that the words on the page do not support. And that was a major part of my point. Not that he said something- that the way he said something was potentially problematic.
Makes it difficult for anyone else to get a word in edgewise doesn't. As though it's the text equivalent of screaming until everyone else stops talking.
Not really no. On both counts. But you say I am conveniently saying I was misunderstood. So if you want to quote something I can copy paste the context and we can walk through together and see where the misunderstanding is- or perhaps there isn’t and in all that text I made a mistake. Could be. I’m willing and able should you choose to.
Now: “Men aren’t always intimidated by strong women, men are put off by obnoxious women, and some women seem to think that being obnoxious is the same as being strong.” Huh. Wrote that off the top of my head. It isn’t long and drawn out or particularly awkward like your satirical example. It is qualified, and carries a much different tone. If we wanted to, we could add the “it’s not that we... we just prefer other options” back to the end- but personally I left if off because I don’t think it is needed and is somewhat petty for my tastes.
Obviously my rough draft could be improved upon- but as a quick improv I think it illustrates reasonably well that the same thing could be said with a much less ambiguous lead and negative undertones. But- opinions right? You might feel different. That’s what such spaces are for- people to discuss these things. Wouldn’t make much sense to post something that is fairly obviously not close to a universal experience, and likely somewhat polarizing, and not have a discussion on the subject.
Or- people can downvote. Doesn’t hurt my feelings. Makes me giggle. Those who can’t use words will use what weapons they have. The mark of the Internet impotent, no power to express ones self save through spreading negativity. I suppose the anonymity also favors the weak. So I giggle when I see them. And also feel a little sad for that person. Life goes on though.
Not really here for upvotes. I don’t get paid by the vote. They are appreciated, but it also makes it easy to collect downvotes when you have so many posts since blind downvoters (especially loyal followers) tend to be more generous. As I said though- boo hoo. Not here for votes. Here for fun. It’s called FunSubstance. I come, I comment, I read, I look at memes, I try to be positive. Some folks don’t like that. Sorry for them. Don’t read my stuff then. Such is life. Compromise. Never perfect, but we can all find a way to get along just fine I’m sure.
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deleted
· 4 years ago
I've stopped reading most of what you say since it's mostly the same fluff with little substance but the quoted sentence you said could be improved upon if this was your way of saying
"op guy said sexist gross thing 2 waman I will fix"
Then you ruined the whole joke bro and instead turned yourself into a simp
If you were quoting something else entirely my apologies I just skim what you reply with now since so much of it is useless fluff
It seems that we are done here. You obviously don’t think I have anything of value to say and have said flat out you don’t plan to read what I say beyond a glance. You have hopefully enjoyed mocking me in paraphrase and telling me about my fluff and the other things you seem to want to critique, and I will not engage likewise, so I’m going to go play some games and eat dinner, and you are welcome to stay and indulge your desire to pick at strangers on the Internet.
Despite the 57 posts that have been hidden, I think there’s more to it than “it was a joke.”
I think in regard to personal relationships, it sucks, but bottom line whether a woman is strong or in fact insufferable doesn’t matter if he can’t handle it.
The problem is in work environments where you have less ability to choose who you’re working with. Because no matter how funny it is to call bitches insufferable, every fucking day people call women who are just trying to get the job done and not be a wilting flower, bitchy, insufferable, stubborn, arrogant, aggressive,etc.
So the point is, it’s not a very funny joke when it’s the context that people use to pass you over for promotions, keep you off important project teams and just generally treat you like trash.
And yes, I’ve spent some time with, maybe I am _____.
But it’s not arrogant to support an idea with research and data (I’m sorry sir that you don’t know what you’re talking about). And it’s not aggressive to ask the VP (who’s in the meeting) about the specs of the project he’s asking you to work on. It’s not stubborn to want to be treated with the same respect that male coworkers are (same pay, not being told to dress more feminine, the ability to speak up in meetings). And when you tell me that I’m too aggressive at trying to get the data I need to do the job you’ve assigned me, then reprimand me for not doing it on time, because I couldn’t get the data (but there’s a clear history that I made the request well in advance) who’s being insufferable?
I’m sorry but the joke wasn’t funny. It’s actually kinda shitty.
Thank you. That’s all I was trying to say. The phrasing, the tone, the fact that this is a real and serious issue. “Strong women” especially in professional environments is still a concept society is adapting to and coming to terms with. Women, especially those who are intelligent, ambitious, task driven, effective, etc etc. are often labeled “insufferable” or “difficult” for speaking their mind or for questioning men. Basically- anything that makes a man (especially a man with insecurities) feel like his intelligence or ability or expertise or authority are being challenged- can be seen as combative. “I didn’t hear in your proposal how you plan to deal with the CSI fallout that could come from this...” isn’t seen as a valid question. It’s seen as an attack. “Did you not think I thought of that? Of course I did. I thought it was obvious so I didn’t mention it but part B addresses it in the marketing portion...”
No one has ever asked me why my face looks this way. Why I am not smiling more, or said- “yeah... he seems ok but he always looks so grumpy...” lots of people are oblivious to the issue and all I wanted to do was to bring some awareness to the fact that “micro aggressions” and little unintended or thoughtless “jokes” and the like can contribute to social attitudes and real harm. People get upset when you just ask them to think a little.
Like if a dude wants my number I might say "I would prefer to not give you my number" or "no I don't want to" not "omg ur soooo ugly why would you think I would ever give you my number" or "wow I'm sure you try that with every girl" or "get away you creep" like you can be assertive and not a giant phallus about it
That was the whole point. It wasn't "woman are mean when they're assertive and I want them to be passive and agree"
Some- SOME- people might hold that viewpoint but this meme wasn't saying that at all
Also it's a joke man cmon
Only a few garbage people would think that and that's why I also put "some-SOME people might hold that viewpoint"
Like yea a few people might be gross enough to think that but most will go "understandable"
My point was MOST people DON'T think that only some do, again I said that in the first comment. Not everyone sees trump as a leader most of the world sees him as rude. Most. Sure not all. With the comment it seemed as if a guy that walks up to me to talk solely wants sex and nothing else and any rejection makes the woman seem rude. The tldr did not look like that but the one paragraph made it seem as if that's what you were saying.
Strong women are fine people respect strong women. But if she's just a dick they won't. Like men, some people like protective boyfriends and they might see themselves as strong they might just be controlling.
The point of the comments were
Strong women and "strong women" are different and you seem to be saying people think strong women are "strong women" because they aren't strong because they should be docile so-
Not ever man is a creep or gross or wants a docile servant and not every opinated women is strong and independent and not a dick
He said "men" which doesn't apply or mean "every single man even criminals that abuse women" he just said 'men' because why tf would he start to say a JOKE that has some truth with
"some men (but of course not the ones that like are creepy and would like kinda do gross-but like the men that are actually-" dude that would ruin the joke as you are doing in an effort to be some kind of simp
It's a joke for one
For two women can be bitches no one likes that
We've already egged on incels and gross guys so we can egg on ourselves for being bitches and how people don't like that
"op guy said sexist gross thing 2 waman I will fix"
Then you ruined the whole joke bro and instead turned yourself into a simp
If you were quoting something else entirely my apologies I just skim what you reply with now since so much of it is useless fluff
I think in regard to personal relationships, it sucks, but bottom line whether a woman is strong or in fact insufferable doesn’t matter if he can’t handle it.
The problem is in work environments where you have less ability to choose who you’re working with. Because no matter how funny it is to call bitches insufferable, every fucking day people call women who are just trying to get the job done and not be a wilting flower, bitchy, insufferable, stubborn, arrogant, aggressive,etc.
So the point is, it’s not a very funny joke when it’s the context that people use to pass you over for promotions, keep you off important project teams and just generally treat you like trash.
And yes, I’ve spent some time with, maybe I am _____.
I’m sorry but the joke wasn’t funny. It’s actually kinda shitty.