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daxanddevin
· 4 years ago
· FIRST
As a teacher, I thank you for this.
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nelson
· 4 years ago
A ray of sunshine in cloudy days
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heywood
· 4 years ago
Oh the problem is the same as it’s been for decades. Parents.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
Teachers are 99.999999% NOT the problem and never have been. That said- whoever wrote this could use some more teaching. Quantifying education or quality of education is quite difficult on an individual level let alone across a large group of people. Standardized testing and such as administered today are hugely flawed- but there is no perfect solution anyone has found so far. Standardized testing is largely intended not to monitor teachers or question the abilities of teachers- in the name- the idea is to “standardize” curriculums so that 1. We can ensure children everywhere are getting the same basic education and 2. To have SOME way of measuring and improving or adjusting schooling to offer the “best” education.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
Now- these things have been twisted up. Funding, career ambitions, political pressures- all sorts of things pervert the purpose and intent- and skew the implementation of these things so that they often become in whole or in part- less about a child’s education and well being and more about pointing fingers, avoiding blame, or hiding deficiencies in an underfunded and under staffed system that then ultimately tries to place blame on teachers over career administrators, parents, and politicians. Teachers are convenient scapegoats for everyone else in the equation who has failed or fallen short in some measure to secure the results they want- but don’t want to be culpable.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
But let’s examine this- the MCAT is a standardized test to become a doctor. Great doctors can score poorly on them, bad doctors can score great. So we do away with the MCAT. Now- there isn’t a standard test to get into medical school- maybe just a diploma and some classes are required? But... let’s ignore the drain that puts on the medical schools as unqualified folks take class spots and then wash on our practical performance. Let’s look at it closer. If we have pre requisite classes like biology and anatomy etc- how- without putting a person in a position to use that knowledge- do we know what they actually learned in that class of there is no standard curriculum? How do we know that your high school or college in Vermont taught remotely the same things as this guys in Washington? How do we know either taught critical foundations for learning medicine?
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guest_
· 4 years ago
We don’t have a standardized curriculum to ensure it- making pre requisites almost useless. We don’t have a standardized test to confirm it. We either have to do it by self assessment or observation- or on the honor system at that point- or individualized customized testing which asides the time and expense- we really do not have a good way to reliably measure “intelligence” or “knowledge” at scale. And while the majority of teachers are capable, dedicated, and hard working- there are some “bad teachers” out there. How do we determine the quality of education you received for the task?
guest_
· 4 years ago
Statements like “people are clamoring for schools to reopen...” don’t speak to a quality of education. People are also clamoring for bars and stripe clubs, barbers and even the DMV to open. Putting asides human drive to routine, putting asides social aspects of school, saying “people would rather be at school than forced to stay isolated at home..” isn’t an endorsement of quality or even true desire for school- it is basic psychology that most humans don’t like being confined for long periods and that for many or most of the population world wide- this confinement creates stresses. We know for a fact that being isolated in close proximity to a small group of people under adverse conditions breeds stress, anxiety, and conflict. Family problems and personal issues are exacerbated etc. people can love each other very much but being forced to spend every day all day in close spaces with the same small groups with little privacy or separation tends to breed conflict and negative emotions.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Likewise- what does using legos and all that have to do with anything? We won’t likely know for years or decades if the quality of education kids in school going through this are Recieving. It’s too early to saber rattle and point to the victories of “free range schooling.” When these kids start attending colleges and reach graduation age, when they enter the work force and the wold- we will see what the fruits of this experiment are. It’ll be a mess of data- so many factors at play and so many things to look at from drop out rates to acceptance rates, unemployment or earnings. A lot of it is intangible. How would we measure if a generation of kids schooled this way made “better” innovations, created proportionally more “advanced” technologies compared to what a child schooled the “standard” way would?
guest_
· 4 years ago
And likely- it may be all over the place. Some kids may have had amazing instruction and others terrible. Some kids may thrive in this style of instructions while other who are perhaps even “more intelligent” will not take well to learning in this system. Without some form of testing along the way- we’d have no real indicator of how that is going until they were all don’t with school. Sort of like checking to see if the chicken is burning AFTER it’s already on the plate being served and not while it was actually cooking. And in the end- without a test curriculum- how would we even quantify which kids learned what or how well? How would we declare this method a success without any sort of data to support that conclusion other than talking to a kid and saying “yeah. They seem smart enough to function as an adult.” And that again is subjective to the interviewer isn’t it?
guest_
· 4 years ago
Standardized tests and curriculum aren’t ideal and they NEED changed. Even if it weren’t for their abuses as tools for money and politics- or their use putting blame on teachers for failure- they serve a “one size” education policy. Public schools aren’t traditionally designed to handle the extremes- the extremely “slow” learner or extremely learning averse student- nor the extremely “smart” student. These kids are largely on their own and at the mercy of luck as far as having family etc. that can and will recognize and encourage/foster their growth outside the public education system. Standardized tests and curriculum ignore the fact that different people learn differently, different people have different strengths-
guest_
· 4 years ago
But the sentiments I read in the above meme are... I find them highly flawed- lacking logic and in ignorance or disregard for the very real and very practical concerns behind standardized education that have- in their roots- less to do with not trusting teachers and more to do with measuring student growth and aptitude- and yes- they DO carry a component of teacher accountability by design. We’ve twisted that to scapegoat teachers for failings of voters and politicians and parents/care givers at home- but there does need to be a level of accountability and oversight on teachers to a reasonable degree.
guest_
· 4 years ago
We do need to have some indication when children in a specific teachers care are not doing well- especially when that pattern continues class after class and against other teachers with variables removed or mitigated. We can’t take on faith a teacher will do their job let alone a good job just because they are a teacher. Explain to the kids who get one of those rare truly “bad” teachers after you’ve failed them my you never bothered to check to make sure you were setting them up for success. Or try this on- if you think we can implicitly trust teachers due to their trade- go explain to a student who has been raped that they must be mistaken because a teacher is above suspicion.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Now- most teachers aren’t rapists and aren’t terrible at their jobs. This is a very small group. BUT- shouldn’t a major goal be not to let any kids down? It’s 2020 and 7 billion plus folks in the world. We’ve seen thins as a species. The depths and audacity of people. The honor system isn’t on the table any time soon.
guest_
· 4 years ago
I don’t have the answers. Personally- I’d like to see- well- a more personalized style of education. I’d like to see a system where we can better categorize students and teachers and match them for compatibility and aptitude. A system where teachers do have much more latitude but we also have better and more consistent systems for gauging performance. I’d like to see a system where teachers were more valued and better patients care of. The downside to that is we’d need much more teachers and education professionals- a phenomenon that usually devalues individual workers simply because it costs much more to pay a million people the same good salary as a hundred thousand.
guest_
· 4 years ago
An unfortunate other byproduct is a system that would also ask more of teachers than ever- raise by extremes the schooling and standards and basic requirements of the job to masters level or beyond. And that would make it harder to find the right people for the job and put out a lot of good teachers who didn’t have the paper credentials to keep doing the great jobs they have for years or decades. That I don’t like.
guest_
· 4 years ago
So there it is- there are no easy solutions. No “one size fits all” and we can clearly see that while flawed- “standardized” curriculum and testing is intended for a practical purpose even if it misses the mark at times or is manipulated and perverted to serve the ambitions of certain people in power. The same is true of any system though of course. Without checks and balances in teaching- without accountability- we just change who has the most ability to use the system to serve their own goals whatever those may be.
guest_
· 4 years ago
From minorities to the poor- standardized tests were in part intended to protect those who traditionally didn’t get the quality of education that was given to others. As a dark joke- instead of driving improvements in funding and attention to the most marginalized groups- these systems have historically often either caused the loss of schools in areas where education wasn’t given “equitable care” due to low scores- or driven administrators and faculty to cheat the results and manipulate data or tailor curriculum specifically to teach kids to pass tests and not actually to learn things. That not only hurts the children but of course negates the purpose of these tests as metrics to find where improvement is needed by making schools in need of resources and support seem to be doing fine. Administration keeps jobs, politicians look better, there is funding and faculty stay employed...
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guest_
· 4 years ago
and the students- and society- pay the price for hundreds or thousands of kids who don’t get a basic education- who at that point are just in school to make other people money- something that will follow many through life.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
Tl:dr- standardized testing and curriculums are f$ck*d. Teachers on the whole work hard and take all the blame for everyone else failing even when the teacher did great. That’s BS and needs to change. It’s hard to say how. The issues are very complex. But the logic and conclusions in the original post are so flawed. It’s too early to call this a “win” for education. We won’t know for decades or years- if ever- wether kids getting educated right now this way will be better off, worse, or the same. And we will of course need some way to measure that won’t we? We can’t just look at a persons bank account or job title and say they are “dumb/smart”- especially when you’re young and most geniuses and mentally impeded have about the same things as they are both starting out and haven’t gotten to use heir gifts to build things yet.
garlog
· 4 years ago
Well around here its definitely a lack of academic standards and a desire to push everyone through to graduation whether they've learned the material or not.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
There in lies the irony. Standardization is designed to measure progress and ensure a uniform minimum quality of education and proficiency- but it often leads instead to “massaging” in order to meet the metrics set for the institution. That’s the paradox. Without clear goals and measurable expectations- not only do people not know what is the “right” or “wrong” thing to do- but it makes it unfair that they don’t even know WHY they failed. BUT- any system with clear input and output- you can manipulate or “game” to get a desired output.
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garlog
· 4 years ago
Wouldn't be a paradox if the standards were enforced in principle from the top down.
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guest_
· 4 years ago
Of course. It doesn’t HAVE to be a paradox. If the people involved from the top down could be relied upon to to act in the spirit of the rules and not simply to meet the letter of the rules- problem solved. But if it were so simple- we wouldn’t need standardization as much because we could rely on the judgment of individuals in the system- and rely upon others in the system to enforce the highest standards of education- so at that point the whole thing is moot and off the table because there is no real problem.
guest_
· 4 years ago
But top to bottom isn’t the biggest problem. It’s the sides one must watch out for. The perils of democracy are its strengths- all the idiots get a say. The parents and the voters and the tax payers have ultimate direction of education. The simplified path is that a teacher answers to a principal, a principal to a superintendent. A super to a board of education, and so up it goes to the politicians. Now- most of the administration serves at the pleasure of their charges. So the real problem- much of what they do isn’t even inherently self motivated- but intended to keep or increase the favor of those charges.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Parents in general have 3 primary concerns with education. 1. They want their child to be competitive- to get the “best” chance at success. 2. They want to make sure that their personal values and ideologies are reflected- or at least not countermanded in their child’s education environment. 3. Generally- they want a baby sitter. The majority of parents want to be (or need to be) as hands off as possible in all this. Dump the kid at school, have the day to work etc- have minimal worry to come get them after or for them to get home. If homework cuts in to a parents plans- if it requires them to spend their after work time working on homework for long periods, if it interferes with extracurricular like athletics, they often get mad. At the school. At the teacher especially.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Tutors- usually needing a tutor pisses off parents with less money or who are financially defensive. But- parents with money often hire teachers to teach after school to keep them from having to put any extra effort into their child’s schooling. The general attitude of parents as a mob can be summed up as: “between X-Y ocklock- they are your problem. But also- do as good of a job as I want even if I can’t or won’t do it myself- and instill values and ideas in them exactly as I want, and also follow my dietary and other practices even when they conflict with your policies or discretion as a teacher.”
guest_
· 4 years ago
So- the teacher can’t directly be fired by parents- but their bosses can. The higher you go in most any organization the more everything just looks like numbers. A secretary of education who is ultimately responsible for every school and student for example- cannot possibly by the laws of physics have any in depth knowledge or interaction with any real percent of those people. Nuance is lost.
guest_
· 4 years ago
And their bosses- who usually have more to focus on than just education- especially can’t get into detail on that one subject or any other really. So the “leadership” needs to show they are doing their job. Much like a check- a diploma or degree means nothing without backing. Standards- a major reason why many certificates of educations aren’t valid internationally. The standards required may be different between places- meaning the holder of that paperwork doesn’t meet the local requirements that paper represents.
guest_
· 4 years ago
So we can’t just judge success on graduation rate. That is the easiest thing to manipulate if you want to keep your job. It can be a factor- but then it requires we set certain standards for graduation. And so that after 10+ years kids don’t hit an unclimbable wall- and so we don’t have to wait decades to find out if people are doing their jobs- we need milestones along the way to track progress to that goal.
guest_
· 4 years ago
And it all sounds so sinister- “people cheating to keep their jobs!” Until you read back a few posts about our parents and voters- and remember that they are at the mercy of an illogical, emotional, self interested mob. To help someone tomorrow- you must be in business tomorrow. This is the “noble dirt” in politics. A “good” person, skilled, who wants to help and does do good- has to keep their position to do that. They must appease their bosses and have people in their corner and be owed favors- and of course- they have to appease the mob.
guest_
· 4 years ago
Adults are children by and large. Children who can fire their parents. Imagine that- imagine a child that when they dont get their way- can fire their parent and get new ones until they get one that does what they want?
guest_
· 4 years ago
That’s politics. If mommy says you car have a whole cake for breakfast because it is bad for you and because it will rot your teeth- fired. If daddy says you have to shower and you can’t keep that feral rabid raccoon- fired. So we are spoiled children. Politicians cave to voters. People who actually are experts in certain areas and have clear vision of facts- who’s jobs it is to just look at those facts- have to be dragged about by “joe 6 pack.”
guest_
· 4 years ago
The antivax memes where the “Karen” has her studies on the toilet with a phone and the doctor saying vaccinate has... a medical degree? We are all guilty. Arm chair experts on civil policy, the economy, crime, the law, climate- blah blah. When most people can’t be bothered to even read the whole ballot pamphlet. That’s parents. If they are unhappy- something is going to change and someone is going to pay.
guest_
· 4 years ago
So educators walk a fine line. Many do have sewer ambitions or money motivating them to “cheat” of those that do- but that’s true if sales or any other job with people- tell a person “hit these numbers or we will get someone who will...” and most people will hit those numbers. They aren’t even trying to get rich- just eat and pay rent. And those numbers- in education- are defined more or less by the push from parents and voters and their demands. Voters and parents want accountability from educators as much or more than their superiors do- and “it’s a complex socio economic issue...” doesn’t cut it for them when something falls short. The parent and the voter say: “Fix it or I will get someone who can...”
guest_
· 4 years ago
We demand a level of perfection and character from educators that doesn’t reflect the pay, the position in society, or the training they receive let alone the support. And too few people with integrity of high caliber in that sense can be in charge because if you dig your feet in against the mob and say “we are doing this because it is best. It will take this long, it will cost this much, and that’s the best way. It’s what we are doing like it or not...” you won’t be around long enough to get to a high position let alone use it to make changes.
zombie_slayr
· 4 years ago
who said it was the teachers, the problem is the students who don't care and the lack of recourses, and the messed up curriculum
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