Should we apologize to the Mexicans and the Germans while we're at it? Why haven't the British and Canadians apologized to us? Maybe the Persians ought to apologize to Greece, and the Roman Empire should apologize to everyone.
All land is conquered, all peoples were tyrants and slaves, winning and surviving are not things to be ashamed of.
Ashamed of?
If anything, conquering is a sign of pride. One of man's cardinal sins.
Though there isn't much we can do about it now.
It isn't anything to celebrate, but there wasn't really any other option either.
It depends on how you look at it. Perspective. There is a very “basic” way to look at the world- “what is good for me?” If we apply this credo to all we do- conquest, slavery, tyranny, it all becomes very simple. No need to worry about welfare or immigration, the homeless or the differently abled. We just have to look at the world, see what benefits us most- and do that- or use whatever power we have to advocate it. If we are happy and sleep soundly- we don’t have to worry about it.
The other way- the way that shows a humane ability to empathize, to think of the world in greater terms than if we are hungry or horny or bored or want something- is to view conquest as undesirable. Most people do not like being conquered, subjugated, having things taken from them. I wouldn’t like it. So I if I use empathy- I’d say that I probably shouldn’t conquer other people.
The truth is that most humans are self motivated. Even when we do “good” it is often for self gain- to feel a purpose or to feel “good” or “justified” in what we have. But- much like religion this is something people get very wrong when they look at it as a binary thing. The fact that a person isn’t perfect- the fact that they have ideals they do not live up to- that doesn’t mean they are hypocrites or that they are full of shit.
It means they are human- and the idea of “stretch goals” is ancient to philosophy, life and even the military. When you set lofty goals- if you reach them it is amazing- but if you genuinely try to reach them and fail, you’ll likely go further than if you set much lower goals for yourself.
No one is perfect, and we are still a long way from an “enlightened society.” But- if we never TRY to be better as humans- we won’t likely ever be. If we try and fail for thousands- maybe millions or more years- MAYBE someday we really can eliminate or mitigate some of what many philosophers consider the “worst” parts of our nature. As technology improves and more people can have more from life in prosperity and security and comfort- maybe all people could no longer worry for basic needs- maybe we truly could start to get away from some of our more nasal drives.
I was about to write "cue famousone making excuses for colonizers because they 'brought culture' with them or something" but turns out he already did that.
No, I don't believe that every white person living now, or even direct descendants of those assholes should apologize to every native American, black etc person. Nor should they be treated worse in any way because of sins of their ancestors. But when this troubled past brings systemic issues that still persist, such as racial differences in wealth due to non-white districts being underserved, or land still being stolen from native Americans, then those issues and where they stem from should definitely be addressed.
Some folks DO want to “punish” or “get revenge” but for the most part- people are just looking to make things a little more fair. Even if we completely forget history- take it out of the equation- if we look at a game and one group is having more problems and less success... well-
If you e ever tried to get an SO or friend or parent or whatever to play a video game, board game, D&D or whatever with you- and they just kept getting walked over- most people will not want to play. Might get turned off from playin anything at all. Now- protests, riots, even revolts and uprisings- these are people refusing to “play” anymore. Your game sucks, they can’t win, they’ll play another game their way. That’s not just usually less fun- but talking real life that’s disruptive- destructive- it hurts economies and people’s ability to live life and can lead to death and violence. So we as a nation need to make the game so people want to play by the rules. You can motivate with the carrot or the stick- using the carrot is usually better for all involved. Even elephants sometimes rampage when they’ve had enough of the stick and aren’t going to take it anymore.
Ask LA what a major riot is like. Ask any of the many countries still around- or some overthrown- what angry people who don’t want to play in the system anymore and can’t get heard and see change can do. The million man march, Selma, look and see what those could be like if that many pissed off people decided that non violence wasn’t working. The black panthers scared the government and private citizens so much that California repealed the right to open carry and became one of the most gun restrictive states... because of a small group of people mostly in Oakland. The CIA and FBI were terrified and even played a hand in counter intel ops to destabilize the movements. Look up “la raza” of the SF mission district. We need to make changes before we run ourselves into a full blown civil war.
That's the truth. My people were slaughtered and conquered long ago, do I benefit from resenting the white man and longing for a culture and religion that were never mine, or do I gain more from looking at the world as it is, accepting that some hills aren't worth dying on, and putting in the work to build a comfortable life in the country that most people leaving their homelands want to be a part of?
I get where you're coming from. There has to be point where we all come together and move forward. History is filled with forgotten, eradicated people. The world we live in isn't perfect but it's the only one we have. (Until Elon goes home)
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· 4 years ago
"I get where you're coming from" - I believe that's called "Stockholm Syndrome"
Can it be? One has to understand native history much better before making such an argument. Many battles being fought today by natives aren’t just a bunch of decedents deciding their great great grandpa got screwed and NOW 150+ years later they want justice. These are ongoing battles. The Sioux and US government are still fighting THE SAME CASE for owenership of the Black Hills- since 1868!
In 1868- the US signed a treaty stating that the black hills belonged to the Sioux. It was their sacred land and they could have it for their nation. Shortly after- gold was discovered. If you’ve heard of Custers last stand? That was over illegal annexation by the US of the black hills. The Sioux fought military and legal campaigns- the legal campaign is still ongoing.
As for military campaigns- natives were still fighting actual wars for their land into the 20th century. In law- the native peoples have been all but neutered in government and law- the sort of thing that happens when the guys fuxking you are making the rules on what you can do about it.
As the recent pipeline incident shows- this isnt distant history being dug up by malcontents. This is STILL happening TODAY. These aren’t old forgotten things that happened centuries ago. They are ONGOING legal battles that never stopped. These aren’t people demanding some sort of recompense for past wrongs as some abstract- for the most part natives are literally just asking for what they were promised. They are literally asking the United States government to follow the laws IT created and honor the agreements IT made.
As native culture and natives themselves go extinct more and more each decade- and as people continue to be unaware or not care about the facts of what IS happening to natives- with attitudes like “that’s in the past...” no. It was never resolved. It is still in the present- it becomes more likely that this pattern will just continue until no one is left to fight it.
While you get partial credit for at least recognizing and admitting unilateral conquest- like many people, you seem to think that we are removed from the people who perpetrated the acts. With natives- we are very much STILL a part of a generation that is conquering and breaking treaties and laws and deals to suit us. This isn’t someone’s great grandpa taking from someone else’s and passing to you- this is literally the government in 20xx taking from someone in 20xx and passing to you and others.
All land is conquered, all peoples were tyrants and slaves, winning and surviving are not things to be ashamed of.
If anything, conquering is a sign of pride. One of man's cardinal sins.
Though there isn't much we can do about it now.
It isn't anything to celebrate, but there wasn't really any other option either.
No, I don't believe that every white person living now, or even direct descendants of those assholes should apologize to every native American, black etc person. Nor should they be treated worse in any way because of sins of their ancestors. But when this troubled past brings systemic issues that still persist, such as racial differences in wealth due to non-white districts being underserved, or land still being stolen from native Americans, then those issues and where they stem from should definitely be addressed.