I mean, sometimes jokes are just jokes, regardless of whether they're sexual in nature. Depends a lot on context. Used to have a good relationship with a coworker. Was older than me, been there much longer, definitely had seniority. Often would make inappropriate comments but we always kidded around and it actually made for a better working relationship.
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Same job had a female in management (same deal - worked there much longer, had seniority) and during some sort of impromptu meeting with a couple of guys who were new-ish, she made some joke about telling them to take all their clothes off. I don't remember the joke at all beyond that at this point. But it landed excruciatingly awkwardly. The guys were clearly uncomfortable. The same coworker could tell it hadn't come off right, so she made a joke about reporting her to HR. She was the person in charge of HR.
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Needless to say that didn't land any better than the original joke, but everyone just kind of silently agreed to move on
Similarly had yet a third employee, also in management, who would come in and make sexist comments on several occasions, but with just enough edge that he COULD write them off as a joke IF you called him out on it. (They clearly weren't jokes, but hey). Also made some inappropriate jokes in general of the same vein, and given the lack of any established raport, participation, or consent on the part of the few people he made these comments about, they came across entirely different than the first coworker I mentioned.
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So, point once again: context is insanely important. But if you have any doubt that the person you're speaking with will be able to understand whether you're making a joke or not... probably best not to - for your own sake If nothing else
I’m gonna more or less agree. Sometimes a joke is just a joke- just because it has sexual humor doesn’t mean it has sexual intent- but just because it doesn’t have sexual intent doesn’t mean someone can’t take it that way. I guess more or less like you said- we just should probably be careful what we say around people unless we know them and they know us well- for both their comfort as well as our own sakes.
Lol. Yeah. Pretty much. I don’t necessarily think that one would get stifled just because they are “caught” in harassment- more so that many people lack the ability to articulate all or certain feelings or abstract concepts like humor. If we analyze the joke he made- and the most likely set ups for the joke- it probably ultimately isn’t “work place appropriate,” but....
Where this whole idea of “cancel culture” and social justice gets mixed up by most folks- is that ignorance by and of itself isn’t nor shouldn’t be a sin. The fact someone doesn’t “know better” usually means they were never taught better, or lack the experience to know better. I mean- that’s basically what laws are. Codified social etiquette to make sure people know what is and isn’t ok.
You can’t have the ambiguity and fluidity and highly contextual nature in law- people need to clearly understand what it is they can and cannot do and where or when. So instead of being punitive or passive aggressive- when we meet ignorance of social acceptability, we need to use that to kindly and directly teach a person.
It is extra effort to do so yes- but it is also extra effort on the part of the person we are asking to change their behavior or be mindful of others to do so. We can’t expect to try and change the world we live in and not have to put any effort in ourselves- and if is much more effort to take the time and educate every person you meet who is ignorant of something- but just like digging the holes for fence posts- you’re trying to build something and every hole brings you closer, even if it is a pain in the ass and repetitive.
So I personally don’t have a problem with us trying to make society more comfortable for everyone- but I would like to see us shift away from a popular trend where that means we have to “take down” any transgressors. Some folks- Harvey W. Comes to mind- are far beyond “ignorant” in their transgressions and do need to pay a price. But with things like “micro aversions” the person often genuinely doesn’t realize they are doing something wrong- and that is a chance to educate not destroy.
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Same job had a female in management (same deal - worked there much longer, had seniority) and during some sort of impromptu meeting with a couple of guys who were new-ish, she made some joke about telling them to take all their clothes off. I don't remember the joke at all beyond that at this point. But it landed excruciatingly awkwardly. The guys were clearly uncomfortable. The same coworker could tell it hadn't come off right, so she made a joke about reporting her to HR. She was the person in charge of HR.
.
Needless to say that didn't land any better than the original joke, but everyone just kind of silently agreed to move on
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So, point once again: context is insanely important. But if you have any doubt that the person you're speaking with will be able to understand whether you're making a joke or not... probably best not to - for your own sake If nothing else