RIP

But seriously @famousone. To quote your argument- the mortality rate for these riots is less than 1%. “Stop the riots” just sounds like fear. Less than 1% famousone. That’s not bad at all is it? It’s not a big enough number to make people wear masks, so why should it be a big enough number to do anything about riots? Isn’t it the rioters choice what they do? It’s not their fault for rioting in public- it’s not their fault your business or home happens to be where they want to riot is it? And well- you think mask laws are tyrannical- so maybe they think Molotov cocktail laws are. Less people are killed every year by Molotov cocktails in the USA than by Covid you know. I think you’ve been drinking liberal koolaid and fallen prey to a narrative of fear and disinformation spread by the Chinese.

<end scene> did that sound like nonsense? Unreasonable? Like it had no touch to reality? Yeah. That’s what your arguments on this topic and other recent topics sound like lately. Did my best to channel you. I will just assume that should you reply, you’ll be either ignoring the points I made because you can’t refute them but can change the direction of the argument, or making flimsy justifications backed by big talk about you and yours and standing and dying and such- or possible all of the above.

You just sound backwards. Covid is a bug. It has no malice, intent, or grand designs beyond doing what bugs do.
Rioters though? They are people making a concious choice to knowingly and intentionally hurt people. A reasonable person can doubt the feasibility of masks, at least so far as whether it's worth beating and imprisoning others over. Especially with the risks they present themselves (incubating bacteria, risk of other infections, practicality, breathing issues) and the question of whether Covid is airborne (which only high grade respirators can mitigate) or rides on droplets (which cotton over the mouth ain't great at stopping anyways)
Lighting people on fire however? No reasonable person can doubt the extreme harm inflicted or intended.
On a final note, I'm arguing for the sake of any audience, you can go fuck yourself.

@famousone Just wondering, what are the stats on illness/infection caused by wearing a mask?

No American data. Chinese studies paint an ugly picture, but I'm disinclined to trust their numbers.
In the modern west this kind of thing has never been done, so I'm forced to rely on my medical training, experience, and what I'm seeing at my unit.

The US required mask in a lot of places during the Spanish Flu Pandemic.

Yeah, that's why I specified modern.

Ah, missed that

Ok. So, to have this discussion I’m going to pretend that human biology has changed much over 100 years, or that modern viruses have adapted to defeat their natural enemy- cloth. So we need modern data. I guess we should probably get a study. What if we took over 100,000 people and had them wear masks for 6-14 hours a day, and looked at that data over 20,30, what if I gave you 50+ years? Would that be sufficient for your needs? That’s a LARGE trial group. Ok. They are called “surgeons” and that leaves out other medical professionals. There is your modern data. And... wow. Doctors, nurses, and surgeons do not get sick at higher rates than the general public despite wearing masks all day every day for years- AND working with contagious sick people and bodily fluids. Huh. Ok. Well- glad I could help.

Also- you would tell me to fuck myself, you’re not man enough to do it yourself. Your “medical training” apparently didn’t teach you that virology is its own discipline, and even if you’d received training equivalent to a medical doctorate and a specialty, that a single specialist isn’t suited to make such determinations so much as a medical and lab team are along with data and other scientists. But your medical training is beyond my understanding- it is so good that it has made you more knowledgeable than large groups of the worlds leaders in their fields. Not too shabby. How long did it take to get better at medicine than most every medical scientist on earth? 6,10 weeks? More importantly- when are you going to release your cure for Covid that you’ve worked up? No one else can do it- but you seem to be ahead of them all so we are counting on you little buddy.

Biology didn't change, treatments as well as hygiene standards and practices did.
Medical professionals aren't wearing just cotton masks in the face in droplet based or airborne infections, but in fact have a whole slew of protective gear as well as the means to replace and clean what needs replaced or cleaned. You may as well be comparing the protection offered by an armored vehicle to that of a Pinto. Except healthcare workers still get sick at higher rates than the general population (so there goes your only point), and I should not have to spell out to you why it's a given.
And yeah, virology is a discipline, but you don't need a degree to know that 2 and 3 gets you 5, so you can go ahead and stow that elitism.

I wear a mask at work, it's a respirator type that we replace every couple of hours, I face UCMJ charges if I'm caught messing with it or doing anything unhygienic while on duty. Your week old cotton cover and lack of discipline can't compare, and pretending they're equivalent is only going to give a false sense of security.

Except for other countries, where they do use cloth masks. And the United States, where they used cotton masks into the 20th century and still do when needed. And in history, when they did use cotton masks. And there is a BIG difference between saying the masks pose a threat and saying not washing your mask poses a threat. But I suppose you’ve changed your stance on the right to bear arms to align to your new stated beliefs that because an object may be dangerous if it is misused or the user doesn’t have proper discipline that the object itself is dangerous?

Oh. Yeah. Also... motorcycles- baklava and bandana common, discipline to wash etc. is user based. Auto racing and motorsports- baklava, may not he washed for months or even ever. Often worn hours on end, sometimes up to 24 hours. Day labor and amateur trades, respirators or masks and make shift masks used, often without maintenance or filter changes. Often for long periods. Sometimes for years. It’s a long list- but there’s plenty of data one can mine to try and find any statistically significant occurrence of mask related illness in the modern west if one is inclined.

A study would be nice, but it’s irrelevant. If the concern is contaminated masks- people need to wash their masks. We need to tell people to wash masks. If we do a study and find there isn’t a danger- we don’t have to do anything but we wasted time and money in a study to tell us that humans should do laundry- we already know this hopefully. If a study finds there is a danger- we’d just tell people to wash their masks.

Your masks are kept properly, used for what they are rated for. And they aren’t a danger are they? But if you use them wrong... they don’t work. If you don’t keep them up, they become a danger. Is that a problem with the mask, or a problem with the user? Nothing will work if you are too dense to use it. If you’re worried about people who haven’t figured out basic hygiene yet- why do you focus on the problem and not the solution? You should be on here telling people to wash their masks before they wear them if their safety is you concern no? Death by inability to figure out laundry is a hell of a way to go- but in these glorious United States it is not yet completely illegal to kill yourself with your own ignorance or stupidity, but we rightfully tow a pretty hard line that other people shouldn’t be put in danger because of others careless or ignorance. So be an advocate for laundry then, not a critic of masks. The masks are innocent. User error.

I would, but we aren't really talking about masks themselves, we're talking about beating and imprisoning people for not wearing them, and the reasons why such a response is entirely uncalled for.
Small objects in general are safest when handled with two hands, are we going to beat and imprison people who one-hand something?
As an aside, tradesmen and workers wearing masks is an entirely different issue because they aren't wearing respirators to protect from disease, they are wearing them to keep paint and debris out of their lungs. This may be a shock to you, but paint particles are a lot easier to filter out than microorganisms piggybacking on O2 molecules.

I've been saying across numerous threads that properly maintained and frequently replaced masks made out of the right materials with a proper fitting and high discipline would be great, but that is practically infeasible, it is dangerous to act like an old t-shirt offers any significant or worthwhile protection in comparison, and that regardless of all that it is not a great enough benefit to even begin to justify beating and imprisoning people while cities burn.

I’m not denying that people haven’t been beaten over this, but that is not a widespread issue. It really really isn’t. And I think most, maybe almost all people would agree, that actually beating people for not wearing a mask is not acceptable. And if being beaten is a byproduct of being arrested for breaking gov ordinance, than maybe these BLM folks are onto to something...
Are you suggesting that people shouldn’t be arrested for breaking the rules?

If BLM weren't burning cities and rallying behind marxists and violent felons, I would be all for them. Myself and most people in my circles actually did hop on the bandwagon when Floyd was murdered.
It ain't about breaking rules, but what rules are valid and worth having.

I love that @guest_ declares he's channeling @famousone's argument style and @famousone ends his response with, and I quote, "you can go fuck yourself." That's the kind of solid, ironic comedy that keeps me on threads like this lolol
,
I've said it before, but remember @famousone is a kid. Right now he likes to fight, and to feel like he's winning, he'll make up data and be vague and switch sides. Who cares?
,
Later, he'll figure out the value in developing empathy for strangers and "opponents" and, by all early indications, he is going to be a fantastic human. Right now, he's a bit of a hurricane; just tape the windows.
,
He knows being imprisoned and beaten for not wearing a mask is not the norm. He knows cities aren't burning and regular BLM protesters aren't "rallying behind" villains. He knows covering your mouth instantly decreases the spread of any airborne pathogens, and he knows laws should be enforced, even if he doesn't agree with them. He. Is. Messing. With. You. Lol

No.

I like your style @jasonmon

Y'all can tell yourselves whatever you want, but it's only going to hurt you if you refuse to acknowledge that people can truly have different beliefs and experiences leading to differing conclusions. Be as dismissive towards me as you please, I'm not shutting up, and I'm not going away. Nor is anyone else like me, or rather, different from you, going to go away either.

Lol. @jasonmon- I know. I actually feel bad. I’ve been a bit rough on him lately and that isn’t entirely his fault. My tolerance for ignorance is much lower than normal, and especially the stubborn and willful type. Mainly it’s because he does have some marbles and it’s disappointing to see those wasted- not wasted by not seeing things the same as I do, but wasted in that the methods to reach those views and the defense of them do not live up to his potential. I should clam down, because he is just a kid and if shows, we almost all have that phase. I’d probably punch my 20, maybe even 30 year old self in the mouth if we crossed paths today. Lol.

@famousone- as I mention to jasonmon- it isn’t your beliefs that I necessarily take issue with* here. It’s, as I have said and pointed out, the logic that you use to come to those conclusions, and the flimsiness of the means you try to defend them- to your credit and detriment, with great stubbornness. Which could actually be a positive trait if you channeled it and your mind properly.

As to my *- the one place that I will readily admit that I will not tolerate difference in beliefs is where that difference is objectively dangerous or harmful. It is not my OPINION people should wear masks or that masks are safe etc. it is a widely regarded fact of science at this time. Science- changes. In a day or some years- you may be right and most professionals will cringe at the dangers and ineffectiveness of these masks. But- you in essence have nothing to defend your stance or Rebuke the major bodies f science and medicine other than your gut. So your OPINION that masks this or that- is an opinion until you do what needs done to replace the current body of knowledge. You have not and will not. Someone else might someday. Someday is not today. Today the facts are what they are.

Now- if you are right- if in 20 years they speak of how useless or how much worse masks made this- you will be right, but by luck. That’s an important distinction. Luck is not repeatable on demand. Why are flat earthers such a problem? Their beliefs don’t change physics. They could be right too- always a possibility even if slim that anything a person says could be right by luck. Their sin is not that they challenge the status quo idea of sphere earth- it’s that they do a shit job of it. That they make up the rules for burden of proof as suits them. That what they call science- isn’t science.

And there you are. You have a valid hypothesis. But you skipped all the steps in the middle before forming a conclusion. Your process is wrong so if your answer is right it is just luck.

And then you contradict all over the place, you say that the 1% fatality rate of Covid is too small a number to justify the hype. You say that the risks and such are overblown. You say people shouldn’t fear monger. But what are the risks of sickness from a mask? How many people world wide have died from wearing masks since this started? Do you see the disconnect there? To any organized mind trying to follow your logic you present spaghetti being thrown at a wall.

Do you remember when all this started and your platform on masks was that it was in constitutional? And then I informed you it literally was not, and there is precedent, and then Judge after Judge also rules it constitutional? And then it started to be about how ineffective they were, and now in recent weeks, how dangerous they are?

When one of your objections is put down you just pick up another. If they released a controlled study showing masks weren’t dangerous you’d likely not believe it, or just move to something else like how people are littering masks and mask orders hurt sea turtles. That is what you’re making it seem like- grasping for straws. As a man of science if some 30 years and before that as hobby- when you go looking for a specific result instead of looking to see if the result is what you expect, you’re going to find what you’re looking for no matter what. That’s a known bias.

@famousone if I only wanted to hear what I believed repeated back to me, I wouldn’t turn up for the debate. No, in fact, I seek out different opinions and ideas. I WANT you to change my mind when I am wrong. I WANT to hear other voices so I can make better decisions and be more understanding when faced with people who believe/think/are different from me.
I don’t think any one here wants you to shut up and/or go away. I don’t think anyone intends to make you feel like you’re under attack, personally.
I think you influence others and that makes your stance on important issues especially meaningful.
And that makes people feel the need to get through to you.

Wow. You’re eloquent. *not sarcasm just in case it reads negatively. You seem to have a gift for a diplomatic tact.

Holding breathe, stomping feet, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. How's that for diplomatic tact ? haha. Shit, that's the way real diplomates have been acting lol

Lmao. You’re right! I should specify that I mean “diplomacy classic” and not the “new diplomacy.”
I mean, look at POTUS. Lots of people don’t like the guy and he has his issues- but when did checking his over stepping or challenging what you believe to be bad calls become highschool drama? You can hate a person and still work with them. It isn’t him that gets hurt when we can’t move forward on important matters, it’s all of us who are paying for politicians to play games instead of do the job- and that goes for all the politicians on all sides right now- just children. “He called me names.” “She made fun of me...” “they started it..” blah blah. Children.

I’m seldom accused of being a diplomat, so I’ll take what I can get. :)

I think I'm voting third party this season

@popsy I would be careful of having Mark Cuban as your standard bearer, I may need to double check myself but I could have sworn Mark said he supports BLM but will not support Free Hong Kong.

Great. Even my wishful candidate is nuts.

Don't worry, everyone is nuts

@popsy- I’m trying to play nice lol. Well- ok. Sometimes not trying very hard. But for you I will try harder. I agree that media and politicians- all spectrums- are trying to use the current goings on and division to their own ends. That’s part of why o get very revved up when I see people parroting their nonsense. I don’t care about the BLM organization any more than I care about the Tallahassee city council- it’s got nothing to do with me beyond being human.

I DO care that we straighten out policy for policy and other agencies, that we address racial disparity or the perception of it- because I’m old enough to have lived through several large scale race riots and enough protests turned violent on either end to know that if we don’t square things like we haven’t squared them for 40 plus years- it’s only a matter of time before we do this again and more kids full of piss and vinegar tear at each other repeating the swill that old farts have fed them to be good little soldiers to whatever personal gain they plan to get from it this time.

The politics are there own thing. I just want people to think. Thinking doesn’t mean agreeing with me- it means that you can actually explain in consistent logic your stance, and that you aren’t just sound bites and quote fragments and buzz words from the news cycle wrapped in a meat blanket. It means that if you feel solid enough to advocate on the subject, that you’ve put in the homework and thought to arrive at something worth saying, even if I disagree with it, but an idea that is fully formed and can stand and walk on its own and not just a cardboard store front to repeat the signal from XYZ interests agenda.

Hmm, so you are libtard ,traitor,demoncat communist or a racist,misogynist,republican cis white male. lol People get way to lost in their devotion to a party that they become blind followers to the end. Makes understand Nazi Germany a whole lot easier.

Lol. You’ve got me pegged, all of the above mentioned groups. But yeah- the Nazi thing, it doesn’t take much. That to me has always been one of the most important thing to remember about the war. It’s easy enough for people to get swept up in emotions and following a group. I don’t even think it’s that the Germans weren’t thinking. I think by the time you get here hard mine extremist ideology groups in power- it’s too late for thinking to matter. Thinking gets you killed and following you have a decent chance to live, and some chance to live well. Most people given the choice will be the guy killing the prisoners and not the prisoner- regardless of the ideology.

I think that might be my fascination with WW2 the psychology part of it.

Oh yeah. It’s a grab bag. The scope and scale and all the many groups and varies conditions- there’s a lot of human cognition to unpack that’s for sure.