Mmmm. I don’t know if people who think this really understand. I mean- it’s already questionable- and to me unacceptable- the amount of data Facebook can gather and how it can use it. BUT- they tell you these things. Also- very importantly- Facebook is a private company. It has CERTAIN obligations to release data to the government legally, that it may fight in court. China and the way its industry run effectively make Chinese companies part of the government even if they are “private.”
But ultimately it is one thing to have your own government collecting data on you and another thing if it is a foreign government. Here’s an example- if your spouse or parents were keeping track of where you went, what you bought, your browser history, your conversations... some people would be fine with that. Many would not like it. But- if SOMEONE ELSES spouse or parents were doing that to you... very few people would say that is or should be normal and acceptable- even if we say we’d rather no one spy on us- given a choice we’d likely choose the former over the later.
Not quite. Private company collecting data is not the same as a government collecting your data. A private company that tells you what data it is collecting (even if you didn’t read it) and how it may be used is not the same as a government collecting data without telling you and without control to how it is used. A foreign concern collecting data isn’t the same as a domestic one. The US government and US corporations often have an adversarial relationship with US citizens- but if a person believes those entities are more their adversaries than the Chinese government, I think they need to re examine things. HK protested for a year to avoid living under Chinese watch. There’s a reason for that.
Ok, asking a few questions the other way round, because I would never use tiktok due to the crappy content, but you made me curious:
Is tiktok a privately owned company, or does it belong to the Chinese government? Is there any hint of the Chinese government collecting data from US tiktok servers? Do you think the Chinese government is in need of tiktok to get hold of any data they want to? Who is interested in data of twerking kids? And taking into account that data is the most valuable (because of extreme overrating) currency for companies and governments, what data is tiktok content generating that isn't available for the highest bidder on the global market already?
If you're uploading selfies, videos and private data to the internet, they are being sold before they get the first like. The discussion imho is absolutely pointless.
I suppose the argument you suggest is the same one that says anyone who has even taken a nude digital selfie- their nude body is either already somewhere online or could be bought and sold if wanted- so why bother to cover up, why not allow a company to place cameras in their dressing rooms? And of course, any person at a car dealership can easily make a key for your car, so what would be the problem with leaving the keys out or giving the key code to anyone who asks for it?
Often times, especially with data, it isn’t that no one could get it otherwise- it’s that they usually might not bother, or may not want it if everyone knows for certain they have it- as opposed to low hanging fruit. It isn’t generally worth it, or with large data caches it just isn’t practical to go to all the effort to mine it if someone isn’t feeding it to you.
But we aren’t just talking about selfie data. We are talking about all sorts of data- often data that is more sensitive than people realize, and potentially more and more data as technology improves. Data that a government could MAYBE use for some nefarious plot- but regardless- we are talking about a country which is known to have stolen protected trade secrets and data to enrich its own industry. So even if it doesn’t go to some Chinese state program- it could very well go to Chinese media and industry to provide advantages to those sectors. The fact that they gather much of that data in breach of law and in secret certainly casts a dim light on things.
But while China is playing with capitalism and teasing at regressing to socialism- only so much officially as fits the Marxist and derivative theories that socialism is the next step from capitalism, and the transitive step to communism. So even in the present system “private enterprise” there is still very much state enterprise. China has gotten very good at obfuscating or disarming alarm at its influence. Wether that is using real estate as a device to shelter wealth while exerting economic interest, or the use of foreign offices and officers to soften the perceptions of them and create a bubble to insulate state controlled assets from the state- or in seemingly innocuous technology.
To put it bluntly- they are often ahead of us in being clever. They’ve previously found ways that our tests didn’t look for, our “experts” didn’t predict to build in vulnerabilities or back hikes or pipelines using components, software, or firmware. Not so many years ago we had a major recall of military control hardware because despite its simple nature and use, and all the security for military procurement- vulnerabilities were found years after these components had been in service.
It’s a big problem. But- as long as this reply is it is a very short reply for the subject. Myself or others could write paper after paper on any one facet of this problem- and many have! And we haven’t even covered all the bases. No where near. Perhaps a more insidious problem isn’t what China might get in the way of information- but what it might give. Social Media is ever evolving. Who would have thought so many years ago that Facebook would be a place people would get serious news- some people getting a majority of their need from it?
We can see ideologies and politics and even social movements getting their roots or finding their legs on social media. Now- giving a country with radically opposed ideologies and goals a foothold to profile individual users and reach them with tailored content? That seems not such a good idea. One has to be naive to ignore the intricacy and craft that subversion and information control have taken in media especially in recent years. It’s an art. Using the American example-
You can have a high profile public figure like a president or senator make a statement that is recorded and live witnessed- and within a week they can deny it and have the public arguing over what they really said- when it is on tape. For anyone to see. That’s happened numerous times with our current president. Not even arguing the context of what was said- but wether it was said at all. A recent Fox News interview you’ve got a guy who said he stands by the founding fathers assessment that slavery was a necessary evil- the host reading the quote back verbatim- and the guy saying he never said it. During the impeachment you had republicans saying they think Trump did what he was accused of- but were not voting to impeach... and then people denying that was said. It is on record. You can watch video and listen to tapes.
So in saying that there is a level of sophistication to information control that makes it nearly magical in power. No matter how intelligent a person may be- there’s a truck for them in an ever evolving bag of tricks. And since we’ve got a largely young user base here- well... what could possibly be wrong with allowing a situation where the next Facebook could be controlled by te Chinese government, and a generation of American youth gets their information through the Lens they choose?
I could go on for days. I won’t. I’ll finish with this- China, is like the US. They learned from us and other western powers. They watched us use gun boat diplomacy, they watched us be “benevolent” to strategic allies and leave other in need hang when it suited our interests. I don’t know how well versed you are in the history of China from the 1800’s or so up to the late 20th century- but it’s a country that exists in its modern form thanks to the west and our actions in large part.
And that to me makes China dangerous. If there were no China- if there were no Russia- I’d lost the most dangerous country in the world as the USA. Not saying the best military or the best technology or any of that- most dangerous. Do I think it’s good when other countries let America in to their homes and their economies and such? Sure. Good for America. Do I think it’s good for them? Well... I decline to comment.
What I will say is this- China is like America. That’s why America and China don’t get along. China wants to do whatever it wants wherever and whenever. It wants to control the flow of information and commerce and be the guide post for the world. It wants what is best for China and will justify what it has to do for that to happen. The human costs just need covered until the deed is done- then you can apologize, blame your fore fathers, shrug- “can’t undo it now...” and reap the profits. Then repeat without ever changing. Just like us. Just like Russia.
The communists in China killed millions to form their new progressive nation. We don’t know how many. Some say 80 million or more. Some estimates much lower. In America- 20-100 million native Americans are estimated to have been killed to pave the way to our new progressive nation. Huh. Well- we were formed in revolt against an unjust monarch (supposedly.) wait... the communists were formed in revolt against.. and unjust monarch?
And guess what? The roots for this rebellion were formed by anti western sentiment caused by our unilateral deals, “gun boat diplomacy” and the West... hooking a country on opium and funneling drugs in to allow exploitation? But the Chinese steak our trade secrets. Yes. The west stole Silk from them. Literally. Tea. Many more things over time and more recently too. And if you think stealing the secret of silk isn’t a big deal- go look up the trade and see not only the value of textiles over time and the royalties that would be at even 10%, but think about how many businesses got their start from that money that could have been Chinese owned if the trade had stayed with them.
The facts are that we taught China that we were unreliable, that the West didn’t value Asian life the same and that they weren’t going to be let in to the club with western nations who would always back each other over the “outsiders” they were. Then the west as a whole basically declared them an enemy because they were communist- our stated mission to end their way of life and put them under ours.
They learned from us. They leaned what the diplomacy of the world powers looked like. What the promises of a world power were worth, and the depths world powers would go to in order to rise to the top and stay there. And the European powers and America- we get to say “that was in our barbaric past” and let’s pretend that’s true and we are all perfect angels of human rights and integrity and virtue as nations now (we aren’t. Let’s pretend..”
We didn’t become world powers by being nice. We got to the top and then decided to play nice because we can afford to. When we can’t- we don’t. You and I spoke about Germany, without the Nazis it is very unlikely Germany would be where it is today. Had the whole country been soviet- it very likely would never have achieved the status as a world leader of technology and industry- and likely would have hit a hard recession when the USSR collapsed like other soviet countries. The integration of east Germany shows what that historically “short” period had done comparing the lives of East Germans to west.
But without WW2- Germany wouldn’t be positioned where it was. Wouldn’t have developed technologies and so on and so on- which placed it where it was. That turned it from a nation crippled by war debt and all these troubles- and enriched it as well as the fact that the extreme reaction to the post war period previous had the allies taking a different tact than punishing the nation as hard as they could for what had been done.
America and the UK are awash in horrors for 200+ years, without which- would neither likely be what they are today. And so modern China- it’s not even 100 yet. When America was 100 we had just outlawed chattel slavery 10 years before- and would still be struggling to even begin to truly integrate blacks in society- until we were almost 200 years old! And well... it’s still not quite perfect today but it isn’t nearly as bad as it was. We were still massacring natives and short decades before were stealing land by conquest from Mexico. It was 1900 when we annexed the independent kingdom of Hawaii. Did we stop there?
So my point is- China is a place of horrors and happiness. The people who aren’t on the receiving end of the horrors see the system working pretty well. But how’s that any different from most world powers except that we can point at our grand parents or greats and great greats and so on and blame them while we enjoy the spoils of their sins and wash our hands of any responsibility?
China is scary as hell because it is not so different from the Western Powers. It’s largely the same on the level of ethics and operation- and if you don’t live in a country that is a western power, and you aren’t scared or wary of the western powers- history is laughing at you while waiting to show you what’s waiting behind that door when inevitably you run afoul of one. If we cloned America- I wouldn’t let America 2 anywhere near fucking America. Those guys are dangerous. So clone America and make it a communist totalitarian “democratic” dictatorship- hell no. I wouldn’t trust those guys at all. If you do- well- history. History will tell you what happens. Even in the “so great” west most of us are worried about our own governments screwing us- trying to watch China AND the US government and make sure they don’t screw me? That’s too much work.
Since we already have the American government to worry about- and that is by nature of us being- America, so it came pre installed and is needed for the country to run- I’d like to just keep it there. No need to install China too and have to worry about both. We can theoretically stop, or at least slow, China from getting their hooks into things- it’s already long too late to stop our own government from getting its claws into everyone business. I’ll keep the one I have, and China can go rule Asia or maybe bother Europe or their other neighbors.
Is tiktok a privately owned company, or does it belong to the Chinese government? Is there any hint of the Chinese government collecting data from US tiktok servers? Do you think the Chinese government is in need of tiktok to get hold of any data they want to? Who is interested in data of twerking kids? And taking into account that data is the most valuable (because of extreme overrating) currency for companies and governments, what data is tiktok content generating that isn't available for the highest bidder on the global market already?
If you're uploading selfies, videos and private data to the internet, they are being sold before they get the first like. The discussion imho is absolutely pointless.