We can hate on Disney- we can hate on all these corporations. But just remember- they use metrics and focus groups and research and make billions dollar properties that we all lap up. All that research and all their profits tell them exactly what it is that we want. What will make us watch or buy. You’ll find no shortage of talk and art and ogling of... basically any of the avengers. Especially the female ones. We even specialized the cartoon princesses. When you see “just a kid” with a low cut too and their boobs pushed up and contoured with makeup- Disney chose to do that, but society is who told them they wanted it, and then rewarded them with money for it.
No we did not lmao. It's been a gradual process 15 years ago, it wasn't like a that. Pick up any episode of Hannah Montana, sweet life, etc and you wouldn't find the kids oversexualised. Now I am not defending Disney, I am saying that it's not a Disney problem but Hollywood problem. Also, I can do all types of testing I want, but if I can greenlight a specific project, I would do it so however the fuck I would like it to be. Same with Disney.
Also, big boobs don't automatically mean a sexualised teenager, it's not that person's fault for having them. We as a society need to do better than that.
Also, how do you think all the oversexualising started in the first place? The internet and social media gave it a platform and the pedos at Hollywood saw it working to their benefit and now it is happening. Good job trying to boycott entire Hollywood.
Don’t get me wrong and think I’m arguing over sexualization (ESPECIALLY of minors) is ok. And also- you make a good point and I should have chosen my words more carefully- because many women younger and more mature face prejudices and preconceptions just for being busty- judgments and biases such as just by having breasts certain outfits aren’t appropriate or that having breasts automatically specializes them etc. (which we could tie in to a whole thing about bras and nipples and go deep into social issues but I’ll stop here for now.)
But I do want to point. Few things out- firstly I’d like to point out that having large breasts, and having a production and design and wardrobe and makeup team who have thought out and focus grouped to the tiny detail, literally craft a costume to show off your bust, use push ups and chicken cutlets and tape and other tricks to maximize cleavage, and then literally use foundations and other makeup to create shadowing of the bust to further increase the illusion of volume and bust size- isn’t the same as just happening to have a larger bust. Characters in Hollywood are created. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t create busty characters or cast busty actresses (or actors..) but it does warrant some thought as to why the decision was made. Is it about the character, the story, is it the perfect actress and she has a large bust- or is it literally just about the breasts? Was it an artistic choice, a coincidence, or a willful desire to display large breasts?
As to sexualization- the topic and controversy of child sexualization in media had been a pretty hot topic since at least the early 2,000’s. Miley Cyrus posed in a controversial Vanity Fair shoot nude at 15 which was the girl, not the character. Disney by and large kept Hannah clean... or did they? Disney doesn’t pick their leads based on how adorable they are generally. They aren’t picking moon faced cherubs so much as they are looking for “attractive” kids. High school musical, Hannah Montana etc etc- they’re picking kids to go on posters and have their teen mag photos cut out and put in lockers and notebooks. How many kids, male or female, had a crush on Disney child stars growing up? Swooned and pined over them? That’s not a coincidence.
They pick kids that are “attractive.” Now- it all gets muggy. Hillary Duff and her relatively short skirts and put together outfits- we have a chicken and the egg situation. As you pointed out with breasts- is a short skirt “sexualizing” ones self? That sort of feeds “victim blaming” doesn’t it? We are saying as a society, have been saying- should be saying- a woman dressing a certain way isn’t an invitation to be leered at or cat called or to assume she’s wanting to be sexualized. But then- that should apply doubly for children shouldn't it? If a 24 year old college student should be able to wear 4 inch heels and a short skirt and a form fitting low neck top and all the make up and not be sexualized- a child- who shouldn’t be viewed in a sexual way AT ALL by any adult- should be safe to be dressed any way they please no? But reality is more complex.
The reality is that when you hand pick “attractive kids” and then have adults dress them in clothing that is often designed to look “youthful” but also put together and perhaps not exactly what an actual person in their age group commonly wears- an aspirational model for kids “wow- these kids are so cool...” and put them in stage make up to increase their “attractiveness” and such- there are certain problems there. One problem is that you’ve certainly blurred that line between what a “kid” looks like and what an adult looks like.
It becomes uncomfortable and complex. A heterosexual man will often be aroused looking at a cartoon, another biological male who is dressed as and passing as female, even a mannequin or doll. Some of those things I mention aren’t even human. Their arousal is based on imagery. The cartoon may even have proportions or features which make it very clear that it couldn’t be a woman, couldnt be a human. But it LOOKS similar enough. The CUES are there. The things this man either naturally or by conditioning looks for and is aroused by in a partner are all represented.
Most heterosexual men aren’t aroused by looking at women anymore than most heterosexual women are aroused by looking at men. We are aroused by cues and triggers that on some level signal to is that this entity is sexually viable and attractive. The thing doesn’t even have to be human, it doesn’t even have to be near replica of a human like a a wax sculpture or photograph. Certain shapes and other cues are all we are really looking for. Ever seen those photos of sand dunes that look like “sexy close up body pictures”? We can think sand dunes are hot. Advertisers know this. They often incorporate shapes and sounds into advertising and products or packaging to evoke a subconscious association with sex. Many automobiles are not just described as beautiful, but as sexy, sensual, and many other verbs which we would usually use to refer to a human we want to mate with. It isn’t coincidence.
Disney has a relatively clean image. Or tries to. But they aren’t dunces. They follow the money. If you go back and research it, there has long been controversy and accusations of adultification and sexualization in Disney, even in and before the “Hannah Montana” age. Most of our classic Disney processes getting married and even having families- were young teen girls. Now- we can argue that at the time the story was made or the time the Disney product was released- that wasn’t such an odd thing. We can get to that in a minute- but sexualization of kids for profit or for sick thrills isn’t new. It’s not a recent phenomenon. It’s been escalating- which we will discuss more with that last pin we put up. Media is more prominent than ever, and people have the access to information and are far more apt to discuss social issues and media and to analyze media than in the past. We are moving beyond being passive consumers on some ways while become more passive in others.
But let’s pop that pin now. Perspective. Sexualization is relative right? I’m old. Once upon a time- it was quite provocative for a woman to wear a skirt above the knees. By the time the original star trek tv show came out- showing a woman’s belly button on tv was still taboo. Things have changed a lot. They continue to change. Not so long ago young women were sneaking makeup and putting it on and taking it off away from home in private. Now we bit young girls make up kits and let them wear it and “experiment” right at home. Of course- it’s still not the norm that I know of for young girls to wear makeup daily, but many teens do in fact wear makeup every day. That would have been unheard of not long ago.
In the 80’s- if you see the types of outfits that fathers were making their daughters change out of or forbidding them to wear, many are tame by the standards of today and what parents buy their teens. I mean... “eating ass” wasn’t really a thing in my day. Well... on some circles. And on vacation. But it wasn’t really part of a common repertoire. Things change of course. Expression and acceptance change. And my point here isn’t that “the good old days” were good. I like now. I like people being able to explore themselves and express themselves. I like that society is less uptight in many ways and less puritanical and hypocritical. Not perfect- but better in many ways. What I am saying is...
These images of “clean and wholesome past” are largely bullshit. For some people they may have been real. Boring lame people. I mean- we have those people in 2020 too who are teens and young adults and in 30 or 40 years will say “no one was doing these things. We were in bed by 10 and took dates to the malt shop and danced 6 inches apart...” some will be telling the truth- a lot will be lying or forgetting the truth. But back in ye Olden days- people still got up to nasty, freaky stuff. People have always liked sex. The biggest thing that has changed is what we are allowed to say and show in public.
That brings us back to the topic. See, back when, there was flirting and teasing and sexuality. It was just more subtle usually. Big names like Disney are very good at this. Walking a line between keeping it clean while also being subtle in their use of sex. Disney generally doesn’t go gratuitous. You aren’t going to see Hannah Montana Twerking. You’re not going to get a 39 second dialog shot where the camera is positioned to look down her shirt while keeping her face in frame. They are subtle. A splash of this, a split second of that.
And to be honest- although I don’t know it makes it better- I don’t think it’s all intentional. I think they can’t help it. For one thing- a lot of the people working on these shows weren’t alive in the time periods they are aping. Disney loves that “good old days” vibe. They like structuring things like happy days and such. Calling back to the 50’s and 69’s with fashion and dynamics and what not because of the association with wholesome Americana. They modernize things, and sometimes not. They may rely heavily on fashion cues and settings that asides some modern touches are just stand ins for yesteryear. They often create worlds that function much like the idealized “small town America” of bygone days.
And sometimes they might not realize that certain things they are aping were at the time, sexual or had certain associations. They also probably don’t usually mean to make things sexy in a straightforward way. They’re eyeballing it and might not understand their own motivations but say: “this isn’t doing it. Get wardrobe in here” “get hair in here.” “Let’s change up the angle and lighting...” and afterwards it plays better. And they don’t realize maybe at that moment that what is playing better for them is that they’ve made this scene or character more in line to their adult aesthetic.
And there is one problem right there. Most healthy minded adults don’t watch children for entertainment- not for long anyway. We watch them to see them so cute things and silly things and be surprised by the world. Kid stuff. A mind that isn’t developed, and is learning. We live a second time through them. Being able to experience the awe at seeing something magnificent that we’ve grown used to like an elephant or the view from an airplane. Experiencing the joy at simple things we take for granted like a donut or trip to the mall. Healthy minded adults aren’t watching kids to see their romances and dramas and such.
But these shows are written by adults. Often with kids as the primary audience- but also often intended to appeal to kids and teens or kids and their parents. The kids of these shows aren’t babyfaced and naive. They have all the wit and worldview of a 30+ year old writing what they think is believable for a kid- but still aspirational.
People don’t like watching kids. Even kids hate the kids in movies who are too much like real kids. “Why did they do that?” “Why are they being so whiney?” “I hate this person. They just mess everything up.” “Their jokes are so stupid. Why are they even in this?” Well man.... yeah. That’s what you look like. You don’t think so. But that’s you. Teens tend to hate other teens too. Even teens get annoyed on the bus or at the park by a group of teens and their friends behaving like teens. No one wants to see that. Adults are pretty bad too- and it’s true that for kids and teens and adults, most people don’t see themselves as they are. When we see our own demographic represented realistically on screen- most of us hate it.
For adults- there’s always that character or minor role that can’t keep their $hit together, is cowardly, dishonest, messes things up, etc etc. the “nerd” or the “sidekick” or whatever. You’ve got Arnold or whoever, tearing it up, smoothly handling everything and remaining cool, and then this guy who gets caught and when he’s messed up the whole plan meekly says, as the villain hold a gun to their head and tell the hero to drop their weapon: “sorry...” we’ve got the person who covers their ears and screams in the gunfight instead of helping, the person who is too scared or selfish to “do the right thing”,
And while most of us think we are Arnold- in real life we are probably more the other guy. One of the most famous movie watching comments going and old... “if I were there I would...”
So I mean, it’s relative. So they make aspirational characters,
Or characters that represent more of a self image. Odd how 30 year old actors often play teens and asides some jokes- teens and adults often identify with them as an avatar no?
So we do have to hold Disney accountable in some part, but we keep paying them to do this. We often say one thing but act counter to that. When actions and words disagree....
lots of kids (under 18-21, depends on your standard) have huge breasts (just like lots of adults have flat ones, ex: me)
Cap is like 80-90, everyone is a kid to him
Also, big boobs don't automatically mean a sexualised teenager, it's not that person's fault for having them. We as a society need to do better than that.
Also, how do you think all the oversexualising started in the first place? The internet and social media gave it a platform and the pedos at Hollywood saw it working to their benefit and now it is happening. Good job trying to boycott entire Hollywood.
Or characters that represent more of a self image. Odd how 30 year old actors often play teens and asides some jokes- teens and adults often identify with them as an avatar no?
Cap is like 80-90, everyone is a kid to him