Nah, Captain America would trounce him in every fight, but not be allowed to kill him and then be ordered to back off every time he comes close to hurting him too badly, only to eventually be told to just leave.
The North Vietnamese didn't beat us in a single battle or combat operation. I didn't think either side disputed this.
We trounced y'all in every fight, and then were forbidden from holding ground or following y'all when you withdrew, until eventually we brought you to the negotiation table with the Republic of Vietnam, where y'all made a peace deal.
Then y'all broke treaty and invaded anyways, while we picked up refugees and brought them to the States because Congress didn't want to actually fight you properly.
This is all objective fact.
We are not shamed, and were never defeated.
I'm sure the babies you had march grenades into a patrol passing out candy really appreciate that "independence".
We achieved our stated objectives. Our only failure, beyond getting involved on a European power's behalf, was to finish the job.
I am not the one who doesn't know history.
We did not lose on any military front. Or even a diplomatic one. Our objective was a cessation of hostility. We achieved that. And then North Vietnam broke the deal after we dedicated to pulling out. Our only failure, besides throwing in on a European's behalf, was hamstringing ourselves. And still, North Vietnam barely survived. Only scraping by because our leaders wouldn't even let us follow you passed arbitrary lines on a map.
Except it hasn't. Your own leaders from the era have stated time and again that they could not and did not beat us. And because of how we were fighting, you didn't need to.
You keep saying that, but haven't provided a single example of the Military falling to North Vietnamese might. On another thread I have already told you what happened the closest y'all ever got.
You beat our media and politicians, but never our warfighters.
So you don't have even one example. Not even gonna try and argue the one I gave you. Glad we could establish that the American warfighter performed to and beyond their duty.
Way to proclaim victory after we already left, feel free to follow your nation's example and try to do the same.
The US won Saigon pretty handily. The NVA and VC went all in, and they were slaughtered. Grandpa says it wasn't pretty, he had buddies there who couldn't even walk down the streets for all the NVA and VC bodies blocking it up. I think I can imagine the smell, just hearing the story took me to some bad memories of my own.
Strategically, one could say America did not lose.
However, the people who came back from the war lost much. They didn't fully come back mentally when they came home. I've met many vets over the years, and the ones who struggle(d) the most are those who fought in Vietnam, including those in my family that served. Maybe just let this one go, folks...
the US's publicly stated goals was to stop the spread of communism, to "prove to the communist world that wars of national liberation cannot succeed", and to persuade the north to stop expanding into the south, and a variety of things that all require south Vietnam to still exist after the war.
Lets look at those goals one by one and see how they panned out
the south surrendered to the north and was absorbed by the north into a new "basically just the north's politics but the whole land mass" country. making anything requiring the existence of the south Vietnam to be a failed goal, the north was not stopped from expanding southward, it expanded all the way to taking over the whole area. They didn't stop the "national liberation war" and said war did succeed. They also didn't stop the spread of communism in the region.
Just because the US won some battles doesnt mean shit.
I hope your family members are doing better
War honestly destroys people beyond words.
I don't know if this makes you feel any better but I personally do not resent the soldiers; surely at the time, they thought they were serving their country and did what were right; you know, old lies that the aboves fed them.
It's the people higher up that put both them and my people in such bloody situation that I can't stand.
The currently accepted figures for casualties are as follows; The US and south vietnam's side, including all their allies that had boots on the ground, had around 300 thousand deaths and over 1.3 million wounded, the north's side, including all their allies that had boots on the ground, had about 600 thousand deaths and only about 600 thousand wounded.
regardless of what metric you use for if the US "won" the war or not, they didnt achieve the goals they got involved in the conflict in the first place for, yea they won battles, yea they killed a bunch of people, but no, the country they went to aid STOPPED EXISTING because the war was won by the north.
The North invaded after the draw down. And my argument from the start is that the US MILITARY did not lose.
And it is certainly worth remembering we got involved because of European entanglements. We picked the wrong side, missed a pretty awesome opportunity to prop up a communist nation and cut the USSR's legs out from under them. Or even better, an opportunity to tell the world to go fuck itself and look to ourselves instead.
But our soldiers did not fail, in spite of the fuck-ups over their heads.
what is the saying, the winners write the history, has been done since the beginning. The US was pushed out of Vietnam, they can rewrite what they want for their own education, but in the end, only the Vietnamese remained.
Yeah. The US was leaving, but still posting blockades for supplies, and dropping bombs. Doesn't quite sound like a peace deal was in place if we kept dropping bombs.
We still occupied Vietnam after the peace treaty was signed. We violated our full troop withdrawal, and they violated the ceasefire. We were still well there. I also have no idea who the fuck keeps downvoting. I'm having a conversation, and someone else keeps downvoting you. It is actually annoying me.
We were withdrawing. It doesn't happen overnight. We need to pack up tons of ordinance, cordon off and clear mines, count the dead. We violated nothing, only resuming open combat to keep Republic civvies from being slaughtered in the streets, and our own men from being shot in the back.
Troops had been withdrawing for at least 3 years before the treaty was signed. It doesn't take 3+ years to do that. I've read this information on history dot com. Thats where my information is coming from. It even says somewhere on the page about the Vietnam War that the peace treaty was created to save face for the US.
That wasn't just withdrawal. It was training and aiding South Vietnamese forces. And this was independent of and prior to any kind of ceasefire.
My information comes from several sources, chief among them being Pearson's History Textbooks, Vietnam in HD, We Were Soldiers Once And Young, SOG, The Men With Green Faces, War From the Voices of Soldiers, as well as assorted declassified mission reports from various units and times from accross most combatant forces in the war, as well as a few observers.
"Forced" because they ran out of money and had no support for the war at home. They weren't really forced, they could have just spent more money. But they wanted to leave. It definitely wasn't a loss though. At worst a withdrawal.
"Forced" because they ran out of money and had no support for the war at home. They weren't really forced, they could have just spent more money. But they wanted to leave. It definitely wasn't a loss though. At worst a withdrawal.
A different reason for each of them. Money. Votes. Sadism. Hatred for their own soldiers. Ignorance. Apathy.
All they had to do to win is let the military win. Instead they let political correctness, the media, and the enemy make the rules.
Our hands were tied, we couldn't even pursue the enemy in retreat, or set foot in hostile territory.
It's every problem we had in Afghanistan and Iraq, but compounded and made worse by an even more hostile left wing.
A sign of things to come from globalism and European entanglements.
And here we are again. Having left a country only for it to collapse because somehow 400,000 plus trained and armed Afghans refused to stand up and fight for themselves. Afghanistan deserves the Taliban, why we even stayed after killing OBL is beyond me.
The Afghan people have failed themselves, and now they suffer for their own refusal to be dragged out of the 10th century.
When the coalition announced they were leaving Afghanistan I imagined the country would collapse within a year. It's so sad that it didn't last 2 whole weeks. I'm worried about the generation of Afghans who are educated and wanted to make sure their country developed, because the Taliban will hunt them down and kill them the second all international forces are airlifted out of Afghanistan
Maybe they should've used the decades in training and billions in gear to actually fight back.
They had every advantage. Numbers, training, gear, and the entire country already secured by US forces. And this last month they've demonstrated that they don't have the will to fight. They've demonstrated as a people that they prefer the Taliban.
It pisses me the hell off.
But the advantage that the Taliban had is that they use guerrilla fighting, and the Afghan army was a standing army that could not fight back. It makes no sense that after spending 1 trillion dollars in Afghanistan that the country collapsed so quickly, but there were so many mistakes (failing to create a nation, failing to achieve full control over the land, failing to control the religious extremists) that can explain how this situation occurred.
You wanna know how this happened? Easy answer. The ANA are cowards and the Afghan people want the Taliban in charge.
The Taliban didn't use guerilla tactics. They drove into town and planted their banners with no resistance all through the country while the ANA either joined them or ran away.
Sure, continue with your illusion
We trounced y'all in every fight, and then were forbidden from holding ground or following y'all when you withdrew, until eventually we brought you to the negotiation table with the Republic of Vietnam, where y'all made a peace deal.
Then y'all broke treaty and invaded anyways, while we picked up refugees and brought them to the States because Congress didn't want to actually fight you properly.
This is all objective fact.
You faught for nothing, you got nothing.
Our people bled for our independence, yours bled in shame and defeat.
I'm sure the babies you had march grenades into a patrol passing out candy really appreciate that "independence".
We achieved our stated objectives. Our only failure, beyond getting involved on a European power's behalf, was to finish the job.
Who is going to take you as an adult if you keep spilling nonsense like this
We did not lose on any military front. Or even a diplomatic one. Our objective was a cessation of hostility. We achieved that. And then North Vietnam broke the deal after we dedicated to pulling out. Our only failure, besides throwing in on a European's behalf, was hamstringing ourselves. And still, North Vietnam barely survived. Only scraping by because our leaders wouldn't even let us follow you passed arbitrary lines on a map.
Not American trying-to-comfort-itself history.
You failed
You fucked up
You beat our media and politicians, but never our warfighters.
Way to proclaim victory after we already left, feel free to follow your nation's example and try to do the same.
Just like how our people sent your ass away
A tank running in broke the gate, it is fun to look at
However, the people who came back from the war lost much. They didn't fully come back mentally when they came home. I've met many vets over the years, and the ones who struggle(d) the most are those who fought in Vietnam, including those in my family that served. Maybe just let this one go, folks...
Lets look at those goals one by one and see how they panned out
the south surrendered to the north and was absorbed by the north into a new "basically just the north's politics but the whole land mass" country. making anything requiring the existence of the south Vietnam to be a failed goal, the north was not stopped from expanding southward, it expanded all the way to taking over the whole area. They didn't stop the "national liberation war" and said war did succeed. They also didn't stop the spread of communism in the region.
Just because the US won some battles doesnt mean shit.
War honestly destroys people beyond words.
I don't know if this makes you feel any better but I personally do not resent the soldiers; surely at the time, they thought they were serving their country and did what were right; you know, old lies that the aboves fed them.
It's the people higher up that put both them and my people in such bloody situation that I can't stand.
regardless of what metric you use for if the US "won" the war or not, they didnt achieve the goals they got involved in the conflict in the first place for, yea they won battles, yea they killed a bunch of people, but no, the country they went to aid STOPPED EXISTING because the war was won by the north.
And it is certainly worth remembering we got involved because of European entanglements. We picked the wrong side, missed a pretty awesome opportunity to prop up a communist nation and cut the USSR's legs out from under them. Or even better, an opportunity to tell the world to go fuck itself and look to ourselves instead.
But our soldiers did not fail, in spite of the fuck-ups over their heads.
My information comes from several sources, chief among them being Pearson's History Textbooks, Vietnam in HD, We Were Soldiers Once And Young, SOG, The Men With Green Faces, War From the Voices of Soldiers, as well as assorted declassified mission reports from various units and times from accross most combatant forces in the war, as well as a few observers.
Our "leaders" didn't want to.
All they had to do to win is let the military win. Instead they let political correctness, the media, and the enemy make the rules.
Our hands were tied, we couldn't even pursue the enemy in retreat, or set foot in hostile territory.
It's every problem we had in Afghanistan and Iraq, but compounded and made worse by an even more hostile left wing.
A sign of things to come from globalism and European entanglements.
The Afghan people have failed themselves, and now they suffer for their own refusal to be dragged out of the 10th century.
They had every advantage. Numbers, training, gear, and the entire country already secured by US forces. And this last month they've demonstrated that they don't have the will to fight. They've demonstrated as a people that they prefer the Taliban.
It pisses me the hell off.
The Taliban didn't use guerilla tactics. They drove into town and planted their banners with no resistance all through the country while the ANA either joined them or ran away.