Have a logic argument
1. A god that is purely benevolent would want to avoid suffering if doing so would not sacrifice a greater good or facilitate a worse evil.
2. An all knowing god would know how to avoid suffering without sacrificing a greater good or facilitating a worse evil for every instance of suffering, else they are not all knowing.
3. An all powerful god that is all knowing could enact anything and therefor would be capable of avoiding any suffering without losing a greater good or facilitating a greater evil.
4. Suffering exists in our world
5. Therefor, if there is a creator god of our world it must be not all knowing, not all powerful, or not purely benevolent.
@garlog
that isn't an counter to this argument.
God has goals, to achieve those goals he creates a plan. If god is all knowing he can conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth. If god is all powerful he can enact any plan he can conceive of. A benevolent entity would strive to avoid suffering.
The fact that there is suffering on the earth means that one of three things is true,
he could not conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth,
he could conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth but could not enact it,
or he could conceive of such a plan and could enact it but chose not to in favor of a plan that has suffering that the addition of does not effect the achieving of his goals one way or another compared to the plan without said suffering.
In each case in order that is
not being all knowing
not being all powerful
or not being benevolent.
to go at this from a different angle
One of three things is true.
God wants a non-zero amount of suffering in the world, god is apathetic to suffering in the world, or god wants there to not be suffering in the world.
If god wants there to be suffering in the world he cannot be considered benevolent.
If god is apathetic to suffering in the world he also cannot be considered benevolent.
If god wants there to not be suffering in the world then he either does not know how to prevent it or knows how but does not have the ability to do so.
With our world, the creator cannot be all powerful and all knowing while also being benevolent.
I'm not any big fan of any Abrahamic God.
With that out of the way, isn't this where free will comes into play? People have the choice to deny God, to knowingly live a life without Him. And to go against his will. So, maybe, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism never supposed that God is all powerful in the face of Man's choices?
He created the world, was particularly focused on a certain part of it for a couple thousand years (to the exclusion of other peoples elsewhere hearing His word), and occasionally ordered atrocity or granted miracles.
@garlog Then he doesn't possess the same morals he asks of his followers. Presuming we take the Bible as his word, anyway.
@famousone An all knowing God know would know what choices we would make, though. That said I like your view, God as a sort of absentee figure that allows free will, I'm fine with that as long as people stop saying he is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent, because it just logically can't be all at once.
@garlog
it isnt a matter of standards, that doesn't come into play any more than when saying an entity is selfish. Something is selfish regardless of if you think it is good or bad to be selfish. the same is true for being benevolent.
If god is "omnipotent and omniscient", then for there to be suffering in gods plan suffering existing must be a goal he has or the existence of suffering is something he is apathetic to.
apathy to suffering is not benevolent, it categorically isn't.
Wanting there to be suffering is categorically malevolent. which is the direct linguistic antonym of benevolent.
@famousone
the issue with the free will thing, An all knowing god would know what free will choices would be made by every human being to ever while designing the universe. free will and lack of suffering arent exclusive. god, in making eve, knew before hand she would take the fruit. In a better wording, he had unlimited choices and he chose one that he knew would take the fruit
Suffering as a way to learn and make yourself better? Sure. Sometimes you have to go through hardships to grow. But there is a lot of suffering that is just needless. People starving to death, kids with incurable diseases, horrible injuries or genetic defects that happened by complete accident. There is no teachable moment there. If god is all powerful and all knowing, he would've known how to execute his plan in ways that would prevent this terrible, needless suffering, and he would've done so. And if this amount of suffering is somehow necessary for the plan to work because it is so tightly woven that it allows such a little margin of error, and we're all just set up to follow a predetermined path anyway, then all the discourse about who gets to heaven and hell can be thrown out of the window.
1. A god that is purely benevolent would want to avoid suffering if doing so would not sacrifice a greater good or facilitate a worse evil.
2. An all knowing god would know how to avoid suffering without sacrificing a greater good or facilitating a worse evil for every instance of suffering, else they are not all knowing.
3. An all powerful god that is all knowing could enact anything and therefor would be capable of avoiding any suffering without losing a greater good or facilitating a greater evil.
4. Suffering exists in our world
5. Therefor, if there is a creator god of our world it must be not all knowing, not all powerful, or not purely benevolent.
that isn't an counter to this argument.
God has goals, to achieve those goals he creates a plan. If god is all knowing he can conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth. If god is all powerful he can enact any plan he can conceive of. A benevolent entity would strive to avoid suffering.
The fact that there is suffering on the earth means that one of three things is true,
he could not conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth,
he could conceive of a plan that achieves his goals without suffering on earth but could not enact it,
or he could conceive of such a plan and could enact it but chose not to in favor of a plan that has suffering that the addition of does not effect the achieving of his goals one way or another compared to the plan without said suffering.
In each case in order that is
not being all knowing
not being all powerful
or not being benevolent.
One of three things is true.
God wants a non-zero amount of suffering in the world, god is apathetic to suffering in the world, or god wants there to not be suffering in the world.
If god wants there to be suffering in the world he cannot be considered benevolent.
If god is apathetic to suffering in the world he also cannot be considered benevolent.
If god wants there to not be suffering in the world then he either does not know how to prevent it or knows how but does not have the ability to do so.
With our world, the creator cannot be all powerful and all knowing while also being benevolent.
With that out of the way, isn't this where free will comes into play? People have the choice to deny God, to knowingly live a life without Him. And to go against his will. So, maybe, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism never supposed that God is all powerful in the face of Man's choices?
He created the world, was particularly focused on a certain part of it for a couple thousand years (to the exclusion of other peoples elsewhere hearing His word), and occasionally ordered atrocity or granted miracles.
By our standards, sure, I guess, but presumably not by His.
@famousone An all knowing God know would know what choices we would make, though. That said I like your view, God as a sort of absentee figure that allows free will, I'm fine with that as long as people stop saying he is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent, because it just logically can't be all at once.
it isnt a matter of standards, that doesn't come into play any more than when saying an entity is selfish. Something is selfish regardless of if you think it is good or bad to be selfish. the same is true for being benevolent.
If god is "omnipotent and omniscient", then for there to be suffering in gods plan suffering existing must be a goal he has or the existence of suffering is something he is apathetic to.
apathy to suffering is not benevolent, it categorically isn't.
Wanting there to be suffering is categorically malevolent. which is the direct linguistic antonym of benevolent.
@famousone
the issue with the free will thing, An all knowing god would know what free will choices would be made by every human being to ever while designing the universe. free will and lack of suffering arent exclusive. god, in making eve, knew before hand she would take the fruit. In a better wording, he had unlimited choices and he chose one that he knew would take the fruit
i am under the water
how are you
please help me
i am drowning