Yeah… “caused by capitalism…” because no communist country ever has exploited people and made them want to die. Capitalism doesn’t cause anything listed here, and a capitalist society can provide for its peoples basic needs. Greed is the culprit, and in a capitalism that is unregulated for the benefit of society you will have people who only focus on profit- the point of capitalism isn’t profit, profit is the reward capitalism is supposed to bestow on those who work harder, innovate, and bring value to society. Our capitalism is disassociated from reality- if you make profits there is little care or stipulation to how you achieved it. It is entirely possible to be the most profitable by literally poisoning people. That isn’t what capitalism is about in my eyes, and capitalism isn’t a danger to mental health anymore than the realities of nature are.
Where do I ever say that? If you wanted to discuss that topic there is the other post in which we talk about yachts and I don’t say anything about shutting down industries to stick it to rich- I talk about how it’s ok for industries to fail and it’s ok for a government to have some regulation of economics and property-
It’s sort of inherent to the existence of an organized government. But if you want to discuss that- go to that post and do so.
If there is something specific to this post you take exception to, please do speak here.
Okay, I'll start here. Capitalism has nothing to do with "society". It is about individuals. When an individual is violated, it ceases to be Capitalism.
That includes all government monopolies, bail-outs, and punitive taxes meant to target certain individuals.
Literally nobody is opposing rich people or corporations making a profit, they should, that's a good thing. The problem lies when it comes at the expense of thousands of people. Yeah you could argue those people could improve themselves, but there is only so much time in a day and you don't know what other obligations those people have. I gave up a $1 mil crop to take care of my grandma who has dementia, bordering on alzheimer's.
Had I finished that off I could have retired 3 years earlier, cuz taking care of her took 3 years until we found the right spot the rest of the fam could visit, and a staff that didn't neglect her.
If people choose to walk away from money for family, that is their right and burden.
If anybody is being wounded or enslaved by the industry, then the industry is not capitalist, and ought to be torn down.
aren't workers also basically enslaved by capitalism? Sure you can choose how to work, but you still must work. How you work is also at you discursion, but you have to until you make enough to retire. Also to elaborate, it wasn't my grandma who asked, it was my mom... she was working and she knew she couldn't hire maintenance workers, go to her job, and take care at my grandma all at once. I have zero regrets about it, one day I'll use the knowledge and do it just for fun on a massive scale, just for fun. I already have money, that's not an issue... I just enjoy growing things... and I've repeated it one of my closets just to prove to myself my knowledge works.
No. Having to work to live, or hunt or farm or gather, is not enslavement.
It's just reality. Everyone needs to eat and drink. You can hunt and farm, or you can agree to help someone do something for a period time so that you can be paid in food, water, and shelter. Or the means to barter for them.
If you didn't need to eat or drink, nobody would force you to work for food or water.
Otherwise, what? Other people gather food and water, other people build homes, other people do all this work, and you can just take it without any agreement with them? That would be slavery.
Otherwise you'd just sort of work only to improve your own life, which would be fine if you didn't have property tax or medical bills, or enough money to pay for them. You know i don't mind capitalism, and that my problem is more of the funneling of wealth... no need to have this debate again.
Capitalism has nothing to do with society is already a flawed premise. Society is a group of individuals that is formed in parts by individuals agreeing on conventions and in part by individuals not having the strength to exert their will or the ability/conviction to live in isolation- so bowing to the prevailing will of individuals shaping a society.
We can’t really proceed on the premise that capitalism isn’t a social construct- where in nature is capitalism practiced? It isn’t a force of physics or some immutable law- it is generated by individual will, but can be rejected or accepted by a group of people- the will of a society.
The next flawed premise is the idea that if people wanted to walk away they can- and that somehow makes your ideas “right.” By that same logic the government can impose whatever restrictions they want and you could walk away if you choose to deal with the consequences. It’s a cliche and self evident truth there is “always a choice.” Of course there is- so long as a person can end their life there is nothing that can be forced on them. So that logic is flawed because by the same logic you rebuke the argument, you support it.
That’s not really freedom is it? Perhaps a form of freedom- but not what most people mean by the word.
So where a group of individuals gather an order will form- in nature this is usually the strongest exerting their will over the weakest. As creatures capable of denying and understanding our instincts, humans largely moved to an idea of egalitarianism- that it is not inherently right for the strong to rule the weak by virtue of force. This is the basic idea behind things like democracy. As we advance as a society if we embrace egalitarianism, we will further refine our ways and social orders to reflect the principle that the strong protect the weak and that preying on the weak is not acceptable. Or we will give up the notion of human equality and backslide towards the state our primate ancestors lived under “natural law.”
But the idea that we would be somehow violating the rights of people by preventing other people from abusing the weak is flawed in my view. It isn’t violating one’s rights to say they can have anything they want if they work harder for it is it? That is one of the core principles of capitalism. How does it take the freedom of a man with a hundred million dollars to make it so that it is 10, 20x as hard to get another hundred million vs. a world where it is more than thousands of times as hard to get a hundred million dollars as it is to double a hundred million dollars?
I loves me some freedom- but arguments that amount to things like it is a violation of a bullies freedom to stop them from beating kids up for lunch money- and then saying the kids have a choice to stay off the playground if they don’t want to get beat…. I can’t support. It’s like saying it takes a persons freedom away when we make it illegal to not hire a certain race. I won’t defend such freedom.
Fair enough. It took some effort on my part to read through the chain to formulate that response, so I can understand the feeling and don’t hold it against you.
I note several places I see the logic is flawed and why- one example being the assertion that capitalism has nothing to do with society- its individual. Society is a collective of individuals- a group. An economic system where transactions are made between more than one person cannot be individual, a transaction requires mutual agreement. There are a few others but the other big one for me is a general concept that laws regulating commerce violate an individual. Individuals who choose to exist in or interact with a group of people (society) with shared rules agree to those rules. If they don’t want to follow those rules they can as you say about workers and families- “walk away” and go live on unclaimed land away from people, or live with those who share their values.
Well, I live in a socialist country and admittedly I was a bit stressed this morning because the subsidized public transport was late and I had to rush to my free dentist appointment because I didn't want to keep them waiting.
It’s sort of inherent to the existence of an organized government. But if you want to discuss that- go to that post and do so.
If there is something specific to this post you take exception to, please do speak here.
That includes all government monopolies, bail-outs, and punitive taxes meant to target certain individuals.
If anybody is being wounded or enslaved by the industry, then the industry is not capitalist, and ought to be torn down.
It's just reality. Everyone needs to eat and drink. You can hunt and farm, or you can agree to help someone do something for a period time so that you can be paid in food, water, and shelter. Or the means to barter for them.
If you didn't need to eat or drink, nobody would force you to work for food or water.
We can’t really proceed on the premise that capitalism isn’t a social construct- where in nature is capitalism practiced? It isn’t a force of physics or some immutable law- it is generated by individual will, but can be rejected or accepted by a group of people- the will of a society.
That’s not really freedom is it? Perhaps a form of freedom- but not what most people mean by the word.
I loves me some freedom- but arguments that amount to things like it is a violation of a bullies freedom to stop them from beating kids up for lunch money- and then saying the kids have a choice to stay off the playground if they don’t want to get beat…. I can’t support. It’s like saying it takes a persons freedom away when we make it illegal to not hire a certain race. I won’t defend such freedom.
I note several places I see the logic is flawed and why- one example being the assertion that capitalism has nothing to do with society- its individual. Society is a collective of individuals- a group. An economic system where transactions are made between more than one person cannot be individual, a transaction requires mutual agreement. There are a few others but the other big one for me is a general concept that laws regulating commerce violate an individual. Individuals who choose to exist in or interact with a group of people (society) with shared rules agree to those rules. If they don’t want to follow those rules they can as you say about workers and families- “walk away” and go live on unclaimed land away from people, or live with those who share their values.