The fact that most of these had +1 and now they're downvoted implies that at least 3 people on this site are subhuman trash.
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Trans rights are human rights.
Agreed. Plain and simple. But what does that even mean: “REAL” women? Society has more or less agreed that the artificial lashes and artificial contours and artificial eyebrow lines and artificial breasts or butts or cheeks or chins, the many injections and surgeries and processes a woman might decide for whatever reason, her own or societies- to undergo- often in pursuit of wins at pageants like these- don’t make a woman not “real.” If you want to talk about genetics- those things aren’t given by “superior genetics” or “natural birth and growth.”
“Woman’s” Pageants are about “feminine beauty,” which Trans women have. They are about empowerment, which trans women need as much as any woman. They are about giving a group traditionally at a disadvantage a platform for them to change the world, to champion a cause and to use their position and the funding and attention it brings to do good works in the world. I don’t see anything there that trans women do not have or need.
And all that asides- as said- trans women are women. They are people. They are often legally recognized as female. If you cannot tell they are trans on stage without being told- why would their being trans matter? Even if you can tell- beauty is beauty. Unlike many sports we don’t split men and women in pageants because one has some inherent advantage- we do it because the criteria we judge an “ideal man” or “ideal woman” on are different in appearance and other areas. So then- if. Trans woman can embody feminine beauty on equal terms to any other woman- why should she be excluded other than spite or hate?
trans women undergo surgery and have the liberty to look as amazing as possible whereas women women compete with however they were born with (might go under the knife but won't change as much as a trans women.) not to offend, but i feel that's a bit unfair and I'm open to other opinions, if any.
All the same surgeries and procedures available to a trans woman are available to non trans women- so that “advantage” isn’t an advantage- it’s just even. However- Women born with XX chromosomes have to spend less money to get “ready” to compete. If both XX and trans woman spent the same amount of money the XX woman has more to go towards coaching, make up, training, and other procedures because the XX doesn’t need to pay for hormones, therapy, shaving of the Adam’s apple, she may not “need” implants or intricate prosthetics etc. to make a “filled out” “female silhouette.”
Her natural hormone levels tend to support smoother, softer skin with smaller pores on average. She likely doesn’t have the same amount of body hair to deal with as someone who went through male puberty. She didn’t likely need costly top, and most certainly didn’t need costly bottom surgery. She was very likely in the Pageant circuit from a much younger age than a trans woman who historically would have had much less opportunity (especially when younger,) to even be allowed to compete in the “professional” mainstream pageant circuit- so the XX female likely has more experience as well.
For the same amount of money, an XX woman can get better surgeons because she will likely need less done to be competitive. Bottom surgery can be $18-20k easily, and a top level breast enhancement usually is between $6-10k for more “natural” bust and cup sizes depending on the type of implant. A low end for “good” implants tends to be $3-4K. Hormone therapy for MTF tends to cost about $100+ per therapy session on top of hormones (and can be more depending on insurance etc.)
Tl:dr- in “looking like a beautiful woman,” XX chromosome women on average have almost every advantage over a trans woman. Any procedure available to a trans woman is available to, and often used by, XX women in beauty competition, except there are several additional costs and processes a trans woman may need to “pass” completely as a “beautiful woman” by pageant standards. Fake lashes, fake nails, fake breasts, fake hair, fake contours, all are common to the beauty scene. Add the disadvantages of likely not having the conception background and experience from a young age and I don’t see an advantage for a trans woman in a beauty pageant.
It was really informative. Thank you. I never saw it this way. Would you propose to have separate contests for trans people or prefer an inclusion? And wouldn't it be trying to create equality among unequals? Because as you stated, there are differences between an XX woman and a trans woman. So don't we need to focus on both separately and this could also give opportunity to more trans people to get a platform like a beauty pageant? Would love to hear your views.
To be honest- that is a tough question. In places like America there is a dark history of exclusion, and “separate but equal” is almost never so. It’s a problem encountered commonly in sports segregated between men and women- inevitably the newer, less supported, less established leagues will likely never “catch up” or even become popular as a whole. There’s only so many sponsors and so many dollars and so much time to go around, and so these separate entities become competitors to each other.
The very existence of competition is because people aren’t identical. Even with the best doctors and any enhancements money can buy- wether it is a beauty pageant or a football match or anything- some people could never even compete let alone be the best. That’s what we are looking for- the best at something, whatever that something is.
With pageants- we are lookin for the person who is well spoken, beautiful to the standards of the judges, passionate and driven to win. So we have to keep that in mind- what are we looking for? What is the purpose of the competition. In the case of Miss Universe- there is nothing in the purpose or mission that says we can’t have trans women, that trans women can’t be competitive. They may face disadvantages case by case- but competition is about overcoming obstacles.
CONCLUSION: the aspects of “womanhood” we look for in a Miss Universe or similar are found in trans women. Miss universe can’t be or get pregnant. That is a rule of the competition. Miss universe isn’t about chromosomes or what is between your legs- it’s about how much you embody the ideals of the pageant and “womanhood” as it’s seen in society. If transwomen want to compete we should let them. If they want to start their own pageants we should let them. But telling someone you CANT participate when there is no good reason and they HAVE TO start their own just to participate is exclusive.
In American basketball there was a man named Muggsy Bogues. He was a world class player who was 5’3” (160cm) in a sport where height is very important and the average height is 6’7” (200.66cm). Despite having natural disadvantage he was determined to play in the pro leagues and proved his worth. So whatever challenges trans women would face in beauty pageants are their choice to take on, and if they win despite them, all the more respect should be given. Keeping in mind the challenges of a beauty pageant often pale in comparison to the challenges faced by trans people in their daily lives. It might do some good for society to see the face of trans folk and to put some of those challenges in terms people maybe could relate to.
According to Wikipedia; "Ángela Ponce made history on 29 June 2018 as the first openly transgender woman to be crowned Miss Spain. She represented her country at Miss Universe 2018 as the first openly transgender contestant competing for the title."
Note the word "openly", no one has any idea of how many trans women actually took part over the years because we can't actually tell the difference.
Chapter 1 This.
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Trans rights are human rights.
Note the word "openly", no one has any idea of how many trans women actually took part over the years because we can't actually tell the difference.